Both genders like confidence equally. Both genders like some amount of social dominance,
Don’t think so. Men are much more tolerant of limited confidence. Many women will argue that men aren’t even attracted to confident women. Similarly, I don’t see men interested in women who dominate others. Higher status is good, but dominating others—no.
I’m not going to blame men who cater to the preferences of women. Pointless exercise. They should slit their own throats so that women can dump them for men who behave they way they respond to? If you don’t approve of what women prefer, take it up with them.
No...women do not like people who are assholes and play on people’s insecurities. No healthy person likes that.
Social “dominance” is about being charismatic and influential within a group.
It’s not about over-riding people’s preferences. It’s not about playing on insecurities. Rather, it’s about making people comfortable and helping them to achieve their ends.
Women like what they like, and I’m not going to blame men who cater to those likes. If you don’t approve of what women like, take it up with them.
In the least convenient universe where women did like that, are you really willing to endorse unethical actions in pursuit of mating?
No...women do not like people who are assholes and play on people’s insecurities. No healthy person likes that.
I think that many branches of PUA contain some fairly toxic memes, but I think this claim is only true under a rather narrow and exclusionary definition of “healthy.”
I’ve certainly known women who were attracted to men who were assholes and played on others’ insecurities. I never became bitter about it, because they weren’t women I would have wanted to be attracted to me instead, but I don’t think that means it’s fair to label them as psychologically unhealthy. Plenty of women also play on others’ insecurities to attain social dominance (ex. queen bees.) Whether this helps make them attractive to men, I couldn’t say, but it certainly doesn’t seem to prohibit their receiving attraction.
Fair point. I was conceptualizing psychological health as a dichotomous spectrum. It’s not about falling over or under the line of psychologically unhealthy—one set of behaviors is simply more healthy than another.
Most people have at least a few “unhealthy” behaviors. I know I have one or two.
I was talking about dominating others, women wanting men who do that, and men not being so interested in women who do that.
You seem to be using “social dominance” as a synonym for social status. Yes, everyone likes social status. Men get it by dominating others. Women don’t.
are you really willing to endorse unethical actions in pursuit of mating?
I don’t see winning as unethical. I don’t see giving women what they respond to as unethical. Some people like S&M. Is a little pain “unethical”, if that’s what someone responds to?
Social dominance is helping people acheive their ends?
I think (by the quotes) you mean “What some call social dominance in regards to womens attraction is actually making them comfortable and helping them achieve their goals.”
Which is less Orwellian, in terms of the not using the word dominance to mean its opposite, but… still isn’t necessarily true.
Men who succeed in convincing others to serve the goals those men choose are what we call social dominance, and that this is actually attractive to women is equally reasonable a priori.
Men who succeed in convincing others to serve the goals those men choose are what we call social dominance, and that this is actually attractive to women is equally reasonable a priori.
Yeah, that’s actually a much better way to put it., except that’s not just for men.
And you can use unethical methods (coercion, violence) to achieve that...but that’s not the only way it can be achieved.
I guess by appending the word “social” to the word dominance, I took it to mean specifically the “charismatic” sort of dominance, when you get people to follow your interests because they like you or think that you can help them succeed (rather than out of fear of violence or social consequences)
Don’t think so. Men are much more tolerant of limited confidence. Many women will argue that men aren’t even attracted to confident women. Similarly, I don’t see men interested in women who dominate others. Higher status is good, but dominating others—no.
I’m not going to blame men who cater to the preferences of women. Pointless exercise. They should slit their own throats so that women can dump them for men who behave they way they respond to? If you don’t approve of what women prefer, take it up with them.
No...women do not like people who are assholes and play on people’s insecurities. No healthy person likes that.
Social “dominance” is about being charismatic and influential within a group.
It’s not about over-riding people’s preferences. It’s not about playing on insecurities. Rather, it’s about making people comfortable and helping them to achieve their ends.
In the least convenient universe where women did like that, are you really willing to endorse unethical actions in pursuit of mating?
I think that many branches of PUA contain some fairly toxic memes, but I think this claim is only true under a rather narrow and exclusionary definition of “healthy.”
I’ve certainly known women who were attracted to men who were assholes and played on others’ insecurities. I never became bitter about it, because they weren’t women I would have wanted to be attracted to me instead, but I don’t think that means it’s fair to label them as psychologically unhealthy. Plenty of women also play on others’ insecurities to attain social dominance (ex. queen bees.) Whether this helps make them attractive to men, I couldn’t say, but it certainly doesn’t seem to prohibit their receiving attraction.
Fair point. I was conceptualizing psychological health as a dichotomous spectrum. It’s not about falling over or under the line of psychologically unhealthy—one set of behaviors is simply more healthy than another.
Most people have at least a few “unhealthy” behaviors. I know I have one or two.
I was talking about dominating others, women wanting men who do that, and men not being so interested in women who do that.
You seem to be using “social dominance” as a synonym for social status. Yes, everyone likes social status. Men get it by dominating others. Women don’t.
I don’t see winning as unethical. I don’t see giving women what they respond to as unethical. Some people like S&M. Is a little pain “unethical”, if that’s what someone responds to?
Roland made a new thread, so as not to derail this one with the PUA stuff.
See my comment there, where I make my position on when “dominant” becomes “asshole” more clear, and let me know if you still disagree.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/h6l/pick_up_artistspuas_my_view/
Social dominance is helping people acheive their ends? I think (by the quotes) you mean “What some call social dominance in regards to womens attraction is actually making them comfortable and helping them achieve their goals.” Which is less Orwellian, in terms of the not using the word dominance to mean its opposite, but… still isn’t necessarily true. Men who succeed in convincing others to serve the goals those men choose are what we call social dominance, and that this is actually attractive to women is equally reasonable a priori.
Yeah, that’s actually a much better way to put it., except that’s not just for men.
And you can use unethical methods (coercion, violence) to achieve that...but that’s not the only way it can be achieved.
I guess by appending the word “social” to the word dominance, I took it to mean specifically the “charismatic” sort of dominance, when you get people to follow your interests because they like you or think that you can help them succeed (rather than out of fear of violence or social consequences)