Your comment invoked a whirlwind of emotion! From excitement and a “yay does someone else get it?” to my ego thinking “oh-no someone else has already figured this out” (and certain sense of relief when I read the article if I’m being totally honest).
The concept of body alignment and balance being a good thing is far from new (to be discussed a bit in further posts I’m working on).
I have spent the last couple of years searching to see if my perspective on the ‘anatomy of alignment’ is already out there but I’ve not found it, which still surprises me because
a) using the midline anatomy and the median plane as guides seems so obvious to me now
and
b) movement feels natural and ‘right’ now that I have learned to use my ‘main muscles of movement’. Everything else falls into place.
I search for others who are willing to think about the state of activation and balance of these 5 main muscles …. to work on the connection between body and mind …. to start to feel what I mean.
So there are lots of people who are not only willing to think about these kinds of things, but they base entire careers from this.
Parts of it also reminded me of Eric Goodman’s “foundation training”, such as breathing to decompress the torso—very much breathing as “longer and stronger”.
In Lesswrong parlance, my impression of what you were proposing was that it was a fake framework. So, for example, I don’t really think there are “five main muscles of movement”. Maybe there are 4, maybe 6. But acting as if there are 5 main muscles is useful.
In understanding your framework, I would want to understand to what extent it aligns and diverges from other frameworks. Where it has things in common, it probably is on more solid ground.
For example, some somatic people are obsessed with psoas muscles. I don’t think your framework mentions them.. You mention linea alba as being important, but I don’t recall others mentioning these as key. I am not sure what this means, but it makes me think that there isn’t really anything special about the linea alba but its useful in your framework to consider it so.
Anyway, I enjoyed reading your three posts on this.
my impression of what you were proposing was that it was a fake framework.
I’m going to say no. This is not a fake framework. The ‘5 main muscles of movement’ ARE the central muscular framework of the body. The muscles that, when free to fully function, allow a full range of natural movement and dynamic alignment of the body.
The muscles are paired—left and right sides—so technically that’s 10 muscles—but 5 is the correct nomenclature, and sounds less daunting to anyone who doesn’t know much anatomy.
The only fake framework is considering the pelvic floor muscles as one unit (of two halves). The anatomy of the pelvic floor is complicated, and the details unimportant to using these muscles so I’m happy to consider them as one muscle functionally.
I haven’t come across/paid much attention to the term ‘somatic therapy’ before but it was interesting to see Pilates at the bottom of the list. I began this journey with Pilates classes and my hypothesis developed from my experiences and observations of trying to do Pilates exercises.
I believe Joseph Pilates figured out how to use his body correctly but didn’t realise the underlying anatomy—the 5 main muscles to focus on. Looking at his original work return to life and what he called contrology (I can’t pronounce that out loud!), ‘the hundred’ is the introductory exercise—there was no way could I have done that when I started—I couldn’t even lift a leg of the ground without using my arms to pull it up.
I discovered the Base-Line muscles (pelvic floor, rectus abdominis) are the primary muscles to focus on to improve the usage of the body and also to develop our conscious proprioceptive skills so we can feel the condition and relative position of the body for ourselves.
You mention linea alba as being important, but I don’t recall others mentioning these as key.
I haven’t come across others mentioning the importance of the linea alba either. I am presenting a new perspective on the alignment of the body, grounded in the anatomy I hope! - it is.
The linea alba is important because:
It part of our midline anatomy and the relative positioning of the midline anatomy is what we should use to judge the alignment of the body.
It lies between the Base-Line muscles and so is the primary linear midline anatomical structure that we can become aware of by focusing on these muscles.
The nuchal and supraspinous ligaments (being linear midline structures as well) are also important markers for alignment, but everything extends from Base-Line...
some somatic people are obsessed with psoas muscles. I don’t think your framework mentions them..
Many muscles get mentioned/obsessed over/are prone to syndromes and pain. But they are all secondary to the main muscles in my opinion, the muscles that are burdened when the central physical framework provided by the main muscles of movement is not adequate. We shouldn’t look at things in isolation either (to be expanded in my next post).
… to what extent it aligns and diverges from other frameworks. Where it has things in common, it probably is on more solid ground
I don’t feel the need to try and fit my hypothesis with other frameworks—there’s a lot out there and I just don’t have the time for a start. There are bits of truth in many things but this is ‘the bigger picture’. I believe I am correct. I feel it. I know it. (I’m not sure where the line between confidence and arrogance lies but I’ll go with confidence!)
Ultimately this is something to experience by focusing on the relevant anatomy and feeling for yourself, not for me to convince you of—although I very my appreciate your comments and questions—please keep them coming! I’ve just published my 4th post aboutposture and poses. (mostly definitions setting up for post 5).
You say linea alba is important for alignment of the body. But this means alignment in the frontal plane (looking from the front), what about alignment in the sagittal plane (looking from the side) ?
These are the main muscles for movement, but no matter how perfect they function, you cannot have natural movement without the stabilisers muscles working good as well.
But I presume you are saying that if this muscles work correctly, every other muscles will function correctly as well. I cannot say you are wrong, I don’t know the answer, but from my past experience I had issues with the traversus abdominis which is very important for lumbar stability. I could improve the rectus abdominis (superficial muscle) as much as I want, this didn’t fix the problem for my deeper muscle, until I started concentrated on it.
For some reason whenever I read about pelvic floor (in this article) I would always think about the traversus abdominis. For movement I feel this is much more important. But again, just my opinion, I don’t have much information about the pelvic floor muscles.
Again, it was a nice reading. I rarely found someone opinions to be so intelligent when it comes to the human body.
Your argument against the idea that your belief that are 5 muscles of movement is a fake framework is a statement that that there are 5 muscles of movement. I don’t find this convincing.
The psoas muscle (pronounced SO-as) may be the most important muscle in your body. Without this essential muscle group you wouldn’t even be able to get out of the bed in the morning!
In fact, whether you run, bike, dance, practice yoga, or just hang out on your couch, your psoas muscles are involved. That’s because your psoas muscles are the primary connectors between your torso and your legs. They affect your posture and help to stabilize your spine.
The psoas muscles are made of both slow and fast twitching muscles. Because they are major flexors, weak psoas muscles can cause many of the surrounding muscles to compensate and become overused
i.e. some would put these in their list of “main muscles of movement”. The psoas are harder to sense than some other muscles—and perhaps less useful for your framework. When I say fake framework, I don’t mean what you are saying is obviously “wrong”, but that is somewhat arbitrary and subjective (i.e. there is no clear dividing line in “nature” for minor vs. major muscle groups). As you say, thinking about 5 muscles gives you something to focus on to develop “conscious proprioceptive skills”—psoas are not good to focus on, hence not part of your five muscles of movement.
An argument to the contrary?
I don’t feel the need to try and fit my hypothesis with other frameworks—there’s a lot out there and I just don’t have the time for a start. There are bits of truth in many things but this is ‘the bigger picture’. I believe I am correct. I feel it. I know it.
When you talk about “discovering something” and “feeling” your are correct, my impression goes into “crackpot” terrority, claiming on generalities from n=1. I love crackpot theories, but for a site like LessWrong I think it is reasonable to hold you to higher epistemic standards, which is why I am on your back about this.
Anyhow, one thing that hit home with your writing. I sometimes try to reduce my head forward posture but engaging upper traps, with some glute activation.
When I try to do it more intuitively (in conjunction with thinking about your framework), I realise that I need to work bottom up. So that might involve lengthening of the quads, lengthening of the abs, and only then some trap engagement, but trying to use the lower traps more. This takes a while to do properly, so it helps to sync with breathing (breathing in long etc...).
Thank you for thinking about this framework and these muscles. Bit by bit see how it feels. I’m too excited to get on with other things so a longer answer:
The psoas....
“your psoas muscles are the primary connectors between your torso and your legs.”
Primary connectors? A big statement, and I’d say no. A connection—yes, but looking at the anatomy (position/attachments/influence) of the psoas, versus a combination of 3 of the main muscles for movement: rectus abdominis, rectus femoris, gluteus maximus. What seems a ‘better’ system to move?, What muscles are capable of stabilising and connecting the leg (from pelvis to shin) and torso (from pelvis to thorax) through a full range of movement?
The Psoas major (Psoas magnus) is a long fusiform muscle placed on the side of the lumbar region of the vertebral column and brim of the lesser pelvis. It arises from the anterior surfaces of the bases and lower borders of the transverse processes of all the lumbar vertebræ from the sides of the bodies and the corresponding intervertebral fibrocartilages of the last thoracic and all the lumbar vertebræ by five slips, each of which is attached to the adjacent upper and lower margins of two vertebræ, and to the intervertebral fibrocartilage; from a series of tendinous arches which extend across the constricted parts of the bodies of the lumbar vertebræ between the previous slips; the lumbar arteries and veins, and filaments from the sympathetic trunk pass beneath these tendinous arches. The muscle proceeds downward across the brim of the lesser pelvis, and diminishing gradually in size, passes beneath the inguinal ligament and in front of the capsule of the hip-joint and ends in a tendon; the tendon receives nearly the whole of the fibers of the Iliacus and is inserted into the lesser trochanter of the femur.
Structurally, does a muscle that attaches to the lumbar spine and the femurseem a good idea as the primary connection between torso and legs?
“They affect your posture and help to stabilize your spine”.
True. But ‘secondary’. The psoas isn’t meant to “take the strain” and the lumbar spine is prone to problems when muscles aren’t used correctly.
“weak psoas muscles can cause many of the surrounding muscles to compensate and become overused”
Indeed. But I would argue that “weak” psoas ( over stressed?) comes with misusage of the ‘main muscles of movement’ and the imbalance and misalignment of the body.
thinking about 5 muscles gives you something to focus on to develop “conscious proprioceptive skills”—psoas are not good to focus on, hence not part of your five muscles of movement.
I’m not saying other muscles are unimportant (getting out of bed will be an issue if many individual muscles didn’t function). I am saying that these 5 muscles are the main muscles to focus on to using to their full potential and are the primary ‘support’ and ‘guides’ to align and balance the body. (which is a good thing).
Finding my Base-Line was the key to developing my conscious proprioception. Having the sensory feedback about primary guide for alignment (linea alba), feeling my ‘core pillar of strength’ (It’s hard not to resort to soundbites because they sum it up so well!)
The anatomy is all there. I believe it will stand up to the scrutiny of the biggest collection of rational thinkers I could find.
When you talk about “discovering something” and “feeling” your are correct, my impression goes into “crackpot” terrority, claiming on generalities from n=1. I love crackpot theories, but for a site like LessWrong I think it is reasonable to hold you to higher epistemic standards, which is why I am on your back about this.
Thank you! With all the karma I can bestow.
I know how it sounds. But I know I am right. I am but one let the ripples begin.
This is a rushed reply in a few minutes, I will answer in more detail when I can but I am on LW because hope for an audience that would:
Question me, to help me develop my thoughts and explanations.…
Be curious enough to think about these 5 muscles. Look at the anatomy. Find the muscles on your body. Starting from Base-Line Try it. Feel it. Give it time.
pelvic floor Base. rectus abdominis Line—section by section. rectus femoris shin to hip. gluteus maximus solid and strong. trapezius wide and free.
That sums it up. Focus on these muscles and improve the physical state of the body.
Your comment invoked a whirlwind of emotion! From excitement and a “yay does someone else get it?” to my ego thinking “oh-no someone else has already figured this out” (and certain sense of relief when I read the article if I’m being totally honest).
The concept of body alignment and balance being a good thing is far from new (to be discussed a bit in further posts I’m working on).
I have spent the last couple of years searching to see if my perspective on the ‘anatomy of alignment’ is already out there but I’ve not found it, which still surprises me because
a) using the midline anatomy and the median plane as guides seems so obvious to me now
and
b) movement feels natural and ‘right’ now that I have learned to use my ‘main muscles of movement’. Everything else falls into place.
I search for others who are willing to think about the state of activation and balance of these 5 main muscles …. to work on the connection between body and mind …. to start to feel what I mean.
Just to add more to my original comment and to your reply.
I was wondering to what extent this related to other somatic therapies, such as alexander technique, Feldenkrais etc.. e.g. https://www.yogajournal.com/practice/somatics-yogas-west
So there are lots of people who are not only willing to think about these kinds of things, but they base entire careers from this.
Parts of it also reminded me of Eric Goodman’s “foundation training”, such as breathing to decompress the torso—very much breathing as “longer and stronger”.
In Lesswrong parlance, my impression of what you were proposing was that it was a fake framework. So, for example, I don’t really think there are “five main muscles of movement”. Maybe there are 4, maybe 6. But acting as if there are 5 main muscles is useful.
In understanding your framework, I would want to understand to what extent it aligns and diverges from other frameworks. Where it has things in common, it probably is on more solid ground.
For example, some somatic people are obsessed with psoas muscles. I don’t think your framework mentions them.. You mention linea alba as being important, but I don’t recall others mentioning these as key. I am not sure what this means, but it makes me think that there isn’t really anything special about the linea alba but its useful in your framework to consider it so.
Anyway, I enjoyed reading your three posts on this.
I’m going to say no. This is not a fake framework. The ‘5 main muscles of movement’ ARE the central muscular framework of the body. The muscles that, when free to fully function, allow a full range of natural movement and dynamic alignment of the body.
The muscles are paired—left and right sides—so technically that’s 10 muscles—but 5 is the correct nomenclature, and sounds less daunting to anyone who doesn’t know much anatomy.
The only fake framework is considering the pelvic floor muscles as one unit (of two halves). The anatomy of the pelvic floor is complicated, and the details unimportant to using these muscles so I’m happy to consider them as one muscle functionally.
I haven’t come across/paid much attention to the term ‘somatic therapy’ before but it was interesting to see Pilates at the bottom of the list. I began this journey with Pilates classes and my hypothesis developed from my experiences and observations of trying to do Pilates exercises.
I believe Joseph Pilates figured out how to use his body correctly but didn’t realise the underlying anatomy—the 5 main muscles to focus on. Looking at his original work return to life and what he called contrology (I can’t pronounce that out loud!), ‘the hundred’ is the introductory exercise—there was no way could I have done that when I started—I couldn’t even lift a leg of the ground without using my arms to pull it up.
I discovered the Base-Line muscles (pelvic floor, rectus abdominis) are the primary muscles to focus on to improve the usage of the body and also to develop our conscious proprioceptive skills so we can feel the condition and relative position of the body for ourselves.
I haven’t come across others mentioning the importance of the linea alba either. I am presenting a new perspective on the alignment of the body, grounded in the anatomy I hope! - it is.
The linea alba is important because:
It part of our midline anatomy and the relative positioning of the midline anatomy is what we should use to judge the alignment of the body.
It lies between the Base-Line muscles and so is the primary linear midline anatomical structure that we can become aware of by focusing on these muscles.
The nuchal and supraspinous ligaments (being linear midline structures as well) are also important markers for alignment, but everything extends from Base-Line...
Many muscles get mentioned/obsessed over/are prone to syndromes and pain. But they are all secondary to the main muscles in my opinion, the muscles that are burdened when the central physical framework provided by the main muscles of movement is not adequate. We shouldn’t look at things in isolation either (to be expanded in my next post).
I don’t feel the need to try and fit my hypothesis with other frameworks—there’s a lot out there and I just don’t have the time for a start. There are bits of truth in many things but this is ‘the bigger picture’. I believe I am correct. I feel it. I know it. (I’m not sure where the line between confidence and arrogance lies but I’ll go with confidence!)
Ultimately this is something to experience by focusing on the relevant anatomy and feeling for yourself, not for me to convince you of—although I very my appreciate your comments and questions—please keep them coming! I’ve just published my 4th post aboutposture and poses. (mostly definitions setting up for post 5).
Very good reading to be honest.
I would have some questions:
You say linea alba is important for alignment of the body. But this means alignment in the frontal plane (looking from the front), what about alignment in the sagittal plane (looking from the side) ?
These are the main muscles for movement, but no matter how perfect they function, you cannot have natural movement without the stabilisers muscles working good as well.
But I presume you are saying that if this muscles work correctly, every other muscles will function correctly as well. I cannot say you are wrong, I don’t know the answer, but from my past experience I had issues with the traversus abdominis which is very important for lumbar stability. I could improve the rectus abdominis (superficial muscle) as much as I want, this didn’t fix the problem for my deeper muscle, until I started concentrated on it.
For some reason whenever I read about pelvic floor (in this article) I would always think about the traversus abdominis. For movement I feel this is much more important. But again, just my opinion, I don’t have much information about the pelvic floor muscles.
Again, it was a nice reading. I rarely found someone opinions to be so intelligent when it comes to the human body.
Your argument against the idea that your belief that are 5 muscles of movement is a fake framework is a statement that that there are 5 muscles of movement. I don’t find this convincing.
I mentioned there the psoas because of claims from some e.g. https://www.drnorthrup.com/psoas-muscle-vital-muscle-body/ :
i.e. some would put these in their list of “main muscles of movement”. The psoas are harder to sense than some other muscles—and perhaps less useful for your framework. When I say fake framework, I don’t mean what you are saying is obviously “wrong”, but that is somewhat arbitrary and subjective (i.e. there is no clear dividing line in “nature” for minor vs. major muscle groups). As you say, thinking about 5 muscles gives you something to focus on to develop “conscious proprioceptive skills”—psoas are not good to focus on, hence not part of your five muscles of movement.
An argument to the contrary?
When you talk about “discovering something” and “feeling” your are correct, my impression goes into “crackpot” terrority, claiming on generalities from n=1. I love crackpot theories, but for a site like LessWrong I think it is reasonable to hold you to higher epistemic standards, which is why I am on your back about this.
Anyhow, one thing that hit home with your writing. I sometimes try to reduce my head forward posture but engaging upper traps, with some glute activation.
When I try to do it more intuitively (in conjunction with thinking about your framework), I realise that I need to work bottom up. So that might involve lengthening of the quads, lengthening of the abs, and only then some trap engagement, but trying to use the lower traps more. This takes a while to do properly, so it helps to sync with breathing (breathing in long etc...).
Thank you for thinking about this framework and these muscles. Bit by bit see how it feels. I’m too excited to get on with other things so a longer answer:
The psoas....
Primary connectors? A big statement, and I’d say no. A connection—yes, but looking at the anatomy (position/attachments/influence) of the psoas, versus a combination of 3 of the main muscles for movement: rectus abdominis, rectus femoris, gluteus maximus. What seems a ‘better’ system to move?, What muscles are capable of stabilising and connecting the leg (from pelvis to shin) and torso (from pelvis to thorax) through a full range of movement?
Edited to add anatomy from Gray’s:
The Psoas major (Psoas magnus) is a long fusiform muscle placed on the side of the lumbar region of the vertebral column and brim of the lesser pelvis. It arises from the anterior surfaces of the bases and lower borders of the transverse processes of all the lumbar vertebræ from the sides of the bodies and the corresponding intervertebral fibrocartilages of the last thoracic and all the lumbar vertebræ by five slips, each of which is attached to the adjacent upper and lower margins of two vertebræ, and to the intervertebral fibrocartilage; from a series of tendinous arches which extend across the constricted parts of the bodies of the lumbar vertebræ between the previous slips; the lumbar arteries and veins, and filaments from the sympathetic trunk pass beneath these tendinous arches. The muscle proceeds downward across the brim of the lesser pelvis, and diminishing gradually in size, passes beneath the inguinal ligament and in front of the capsule of the hip-joint and ends in a tendon; the tendon receives nearly the whole of the fibers of the Iliacus and is inserted into the lesser trochanter of the femur.
Structurally, does a muscle that attaches to the lumbar spine and the femur seem a good idea as the primary connection between torso and legs?
True. But ‘secondary’. The psoas isn’t meant to “take the strain” and the lumbar spine is prone to problems when muscles aren’t used correctly.
Indeed. But I would argue that “weak” psoas ( over stressed?) comes with misusage of the ‘main muscles of movement’ and the imbalance and misalignment of the body.
I’m not saying other muscles are unimportant (getting out of bed will be an issue if many individual muscles didn’t function). I am saying that these 5 muscles are the main muscles to focus on to using to their full potential and are the primary ‘support’ and ‘guides’ to align and balance the body. (which is a good thing).
Finding my Base-Line was the key to developing my conscious proprioception. Having the sensory feedback about primary guide for alignment (linea alba), feeling my ‘core pillar of strength’ (It’s hard not to resort to soundbites because they sum it up so well!)
The anatomy is all there. I believe it will stand up to the scrutiny of the biggest collection of rational thinkers I could find.
Thank you! With all the karma I can bestow.
I know how it sounds. But I know I am right. I am but one let the ripples begin.
This is a rushed reply in a few minutes, I will answer in more detail when I can but I am on LW because hope for an audience that would:
Question me, to help me develop my thoughts and explanations.…
Be curious enough to think about these 5 muscles. Look at the anatomy. Find the muscles on your body. Starting from Base-Line Try it. Feel it. Give it time.
pelvic floor Base. rectus abdominis Line—section by section. rectus femoris shin to hip. gluteus maximus solid and strong. trapezius wide and free.
That sums it up. Focus on these muscles and improve the physical state of the body.