I understand why you feel like the Steve Jobs anecdote was meant as a rebuttal, but I think you make a bit of a caricature of the intent behind it.
Mentioning, in a matter-of-fact way things like “a state of mystical attainment the Hindus call dhyana” suggests an uncritical attitude towards the ideas you’re discussing, and maybe an idealized view of India. The Steve Jobs anecdote can be read as just a cautionary note against that kind of uncritical/idealized attitude, a way of pointing out that it’s a lot easier to have that kind of attitude when you’re viewing something from afar, rather than an attempt to argue “everything you said is wrong.”
Actually, I’d go farther than that. Your final sentence is exactly backwards. The fundamental rationalist technique here is learning to make a distinction between a vaguely hostile comment and the extreme claim that “there is minimal possibility that any Indian people ever discovered interesting mental techniques.”
also failing to make a distinction between a vaguely hostile comment and an extreme claim? To say it is exactly backwards is to imply that there is nothing wrong with steve jobs statement. I agree with you that some of Yvain’s fallacies are distorted—most notably the assumption that those who liked the comment were venting out a subconscious lash at “hippies”—but that does not change the fact that Steve job’s statement contains huge logical issues.
First, Yvain is right that it is a fallacy of equivocation.
Second, any statement that attempts to make a generalization about “the East” is a HUGE over-generalization and quite frankly Orientalism. I mean how does Steve jobs justify making an assertion about Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam and the score of other countries that is associated with the term “the east” from one trip to India in his youth?
On what grounds do we take Steve jobs one trip to who knows where in India for how long as representative of the functional value of the civilization as a whole.
Steve jobs is using an availability heuristic which is NOT rational.
There is sufficient evidence that the steve jobs quote and the second quote are not “exactly backwards” as you put it, so why did you put it that way? In my opinion, it suggests that Yvain hit it on the mark. Steven Jobs or something else contained in that quote carries personal connotations that you felt a need to defend.
So to clarify, what’s “exactly backwards” is saying that to a good rationalist, “the statements ″ and ″ sound exactly alike.” Whereas I think an important part of being a good rationalist is being able to distinguish between the two. I’m not saying Yvain’s entire post is backwards.
I understand why you feel like the Steve Jobs anecdote was meant as a rebuttal, but I think you make a bit of a caricature of the intent behind it.
Mentioning, in a matter-of-fact way things like “a state of mystical attainment the Hindus call dhyana” suggests an uncritical attitude towards the ideas you’re discussing, and maybe an idealized view of India. The Steve Jobs anecdote can be read as just a cautionary note against that kind of uncritical/idealized attitude, a way of pointing out that it’s a lot easier to have that kind of attitude when you’re viewing something from afar, rather than an attempt to argue “everything you said is wrong.”
(Though here, I might have pointed you towards what Julia Sweeney has said about eastern religion instead to make the same point.)
Actually, I’d go farther than that. Your final sentence is exactly backwards. The fundamental rationalist technique here is learning to make a distinction between a vaguely hostile comment and the extreme claim that “there is minimal possibility that any Indian people ever discovered interesting mental techniques.”
Isn’t saying that Yvain’s final statement is
also failing to make a distinction between a vaguely hostile comment and an extreme claim? To say it is exactly backwards is to imply that there is nothing wrong with steve jobs statement. I agree with you that some of Yvain’s fallacies are distorted—most notably the assumption that those who liked the comment were venting out a subconscious lash at “hippies”—but that does not change the fact that Steve job’s statement contains huge logical issues.
First, Yvain is right that it is a fallacy of equivocation.
Second, any statement that attempts to make a generalization about “the East” is a HUGE over-generalization and quite frankly Orientalism. I mean how does Steve jobs justify making an assertion about Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam and the score of other countries that is associated with the term “the east” from one trip to India in his youth? On what grounds do we take Steve jobs one trip to who knows where in India for how long as representative of the functional value of the civilization as a whole.
Steve jobs is using an availability heuristic which is NOT rational.
There is sufficient evidence that the steve jobs quote and the second quote are not “exactly backwards” as you put it, so why did you put it that way? In my opinion, it suggests that Yvain hit it on the mark. Steven Jobs or something else contained in that quote carries personal connotations that you felt a need to defend.
So to clarify, what’s “exactly backwards” is saying that to a good rationalist, “the statements ″ and ″ sound exactly alike.” Whereas I think an important part of being a good rationalist is being able to distinguish between the two. I’m not saying Yvain’s entire post is backwards.
Fair enough, could you tell me what exactly it means to be a good rationalist?