Some people, not necessarily the same people who can ace tests without studying or learn math easily or even do well in sports, are still naturally good at responding to real-life, real-time events. They can manage their stress, make decision on the spot, communicate flexibly, and even have fun while doing it.
We call them “winners”.
I think a similar thing happens in dancing. I’ve taken hundreds of dance lessons, in most styles of dance, over a period of ten years. I still can’t go out onto the dance floor and dance. I’ve probably taken 200 salsa lessons; and at salsa lessons, I routinely have to ask people who started a few months ago for help. I literally can’t perceive what the instructor is doing. Visually, I can see everything in fine detail; but if you asked me what they did, whether they spun left or right, or the man held the woman’s left hand with his right or her right with his left, I couldn’t say. It happens at a speed far above what my brain is able to process. Many instructors refuse to believe this, and will not demonstrate a movement at half-speed because they think it’s wasting time. Instructors usually teach as long a sequence as they can in a lesson, guaranteeing that I won’t remember any of it. They teach what a person can learn to mimic in one lesson, and don’t understand that that’s far beyond what a person can learn and remember in one lesson. In fact, after taking lessons from maybe 2 dozen different dance instructors, I would say that being a great dancer almost guarantees someone will make a lousy instructor. (A shout out to Michael Rye of Dance Bethesda, who is the best dance instructor I’ve had.)
When I tell people I have difficulty dancing, they always assume it’s because I lack coordination or rhythm. In fact I have decent coordination and outstanding rhythm (though I have difficulty spelling it). But in dancing salsa, the man needs to keep in his head a list of about 100 different moves or short sequences, and every 4 seconds, he needs to review what he’s just done and choose a new one that fits the previous sequence but isn’t mere duplication of it. It takes the average man about 10 lessons to surpass me in salsa.
I had similar difficulties in martial arts, which I also studied for about 10 years. I did well in fights, because I only needed a set of about 10 precondition-attack combos to fight at the sub-blackbelt level where people don’t get a chance to study their upcoming opponents. But I could never learn the kata (ritualized, pointless dance-like routines that are part of the belt exams), so I gave up advancing. And karate in particular was never fun for me—it was always stressful; I generally dreaded going, a feeling which just got worse and worse over time.
This is a reason why I’m skeptical that pickup can be taught to everyone. It’s a skill that relies on deeply-embedded personality traits that might not be changeable. There can be many people who lack the skill but have the necessary traits, and they can learn. People who lack the skill and the traits, and fail to learn, are dismissed as not trying.
Ironically, you’ve been learning dance in exactly the wrong way. Being able to dance well in a Dance Lesson (or dance troupe) environment is only somewhat correlated to being able to dance well in a salsa club. To use your karate analogy, going to a salsa lesson is equivalent to mastering several Kata; going out dancing at a club is like fighting off a dojo of ninjas with your kung-fu skill. In my own case, I took about four semesters of dance classes before I took the plunge and went out dancing. I quickly realized that while my skills were marginally transferable, I was essentially at the bare-beginner level. Terrorized, I would have abandoned the hobby if it weren’t for the fact that I’d made a lot of friends in my dance class and they made me go out again and again.
Fast forward to present day, and I am usually recommended as the best or one of the best dancers in any venue I go to. I use a standard repertoire of less than 10 moves: Woman left turn, woman right turn, hammerlock turn (behind the back), man right turn, cuddle step, slingshot (not sure the name), a reverse (just undo what you last did), and a pause. I also have half a dozen “flair” moves which can be used in combination with any other moves: kick, body roll, arm flair, body shake, arm wrapping, a twist, and a halt. There’s also a handful of special moves like dips, lifts, and leans. That’s it. In total, it’s a significantly smaller move-set to learn than your average Street Fighter or Soul Calibur character. An extremely advanced dancer might have a significantly expanded move-set, but the sum total of all salsa moves is really quite limited. Learning the moves took about a month of going out; learning to do them well is still ongoing after several years of dancing.
A common problem in dance class is that little understanding is given into why certain combinations or flairs work. As a result, each 20 second sequence is it’s own little ritual which cannot be deviated from. Few instructors explain that if you do a clockwise turn on a girl, you should do a counter-clockwise turn to untangle the arms (or turn yourself clockwise to match). Instead you’re given a dozen different routines which all just happen to pair the same two moves together with some different filler in between. In any other field, the worthlessness of these instructions would be readily apparent. Can you imagine trying to learn Spanish by memorizing every possible phrase, instead of being taught how to conjugate verbs and attach adjectives? The best dance class I ever took (later on) was simply free dancing where an instructor oversaw and gave input. If only I’d been to that class first!
You have trouble with learning long, arbitrary sequences of things. You know it’s a weakness and it’s not benefiting you. So just stop doing that. If your goal is possible, then something else will lead you there.
Have you considered taking improvisational dance classes? They teach a variety of exercises (not in the strength-training sense, in the gaining skills sense), improv prompts, and things like that that help you to feel intuitively what to do next. I’m guessing it won’t help you do salsa, but it will help you go to a club and impress folks—and just enjoy dancing more.
All the examples you gave involve physical coordination. Have you tried any activities that involve on-the-spot thinking but not coordination? Debate club and improv theatre are two examples that other people listed in the comments. If you have tried these, I would be curious to know what your experience was like.
As for the coordination thing...I feel your pain. It takes me a lot longer than most people to fit new skills into muscle memory. It took me an entire semester before I could reliably take blood pressure.
I remember my friends in rez used to learn hip-hop routines by watching Youtube videos. I wonder if being able to pause a video and observe each frame would help you? It would allow you to learn the moves at your own pace, but if you’re not very aware of your own body, it might be hard without the feedback of an instructor.
I’m not good at wit or banter. I live-action roleplay, and of course used to tabletop roleplay; and I like improv games, like Once Upon a Time. I’m pretty good at those. Baron Munchausen is difficult for me—but the only group I’ve seen play it well was a group of professional fantasy authors. That game terrifies most people.
I don’t think coordination is the problem. It’s not like I know what to do but have difficulty doing it. There are just too many variables to keep track of.
Your difficulty with martial arts sounds like it’s mostly because that particular martial art doesn’t agree with you. There’s an immense variation in the styles of martial arts, and it’s very important to try several and find the one that works best for you. But then you said you’ve been doing it for about 10 years, so you probably know that.
You sound like you would benefit from one of the ones that puts a lot of emphasis on pair work, like Shorinji Kempo (it’s quite obscure everywhere except Japan). It does have katas, but not many, and they all have pair-form versions, which helps with figuring out why you’re doing each particular move.
I hadn’t mentioned this before when I had gotten dating advice, and I know the question isn’t for me, but: even in a metro area of ~200k, the “dance class” thing doesn’t seem to be a real option. Every one I’ve checked here says “must bring partner”.
I see that sometimes for ballroom classes, but not for latin dancing.
If there is no such dance class in a metro area of 200,000 people, you should probably rent a building, hire a teacher, and open a dance studio.
Try community colleges and local YMCAs and recreation centers. Dance studios are often much more expensive. $15 per group lesson is pretty standard around DC.
I bet you can find a partner to bring, if you’re willing to ask a woman whom you consider below your dating standards. There may be resulting complications, so use your judgement.
Instructors usually teach as long a sequence as they can in a lesson, guaranteeing that I won’t remember any of it.
If the sequence is too complicated than you are taking a class that’s above your level.
If you have done a lot of Salsa lessons than you might feel that you should be able to go to the intermediate level classes. If you however can’t follow those than you should continue with the beginner classes.
But in dancing salsa, the man needs to keep in his head a list of about 100 different moves or short sequences, and every 4 seconds, he needs to review what he’s just done and choose a new one that fits the previous sequence but isn’t mere duplication of it.
Duplication isn’t that bad. It doesn’t prevent you from having a fun dance on the dance floor. You don’t need 100 different moves either (if you define 1 moves as what you dance to 8 beats).
You don’t need to review anything. You just need to make a new move from the hand position in which the last move ended.
We call them “winners”.
I think a similar thing happens in dancing. I’ve taken hundreds of dance lessons, in most styles of dance, over a period of ten years. I still can’t go out onto the dance floor and dance. I’ve probably taken 200 salsa lessons; and at salsa lessons, I routinely have to ask people who started a few months ago for help. I literally can’t perceive what the instructor is doing. Visually, I can see everything in fine detail; but if you asked me what they did, whether they spun left or right, or the man held the woman’s left hand with his right or her right with his left, I couldn’t say. It happens at a speed far above what my brain is able to process. Many instructors refuse to believe this, and will not demonstrate a movement at half-speed because they think it’s wasting time. Instructors usually teach as long a sequence as they can in a lesson, guaranteeing that I won’t remember any of it. They teach what a person can learn to mimic in one lesson, and don’t understand that that’s far beyond what a person can learn and remember in one lesson. In fact, after taking lessons from maybe 2 dozen different dance instructors, I would say that being a great dancer almost guarantees someone will make a lousy instructor. (A shout out to Michael Rye of Dance Bethesda, who is the best dance instructor I’ve had.)
When I tell people I have difficulty dancing, they always assume it’s because I lack coordination or rhythm. In fact I have decent coordination and outstanding rhythm (though I have difficulty spelling it). But in dancing salsa, the man needs to keep in his head a list of about 100 different moves or short sequences, and every 4 seconds, he needs to review what he’s just done and choose a new one that fits the previous sequence but isn’t mere duplication of it. It takes the average man about 10 lessons to surpass me in salsa.
I had similar difficulties in martial arts, which I also studied for about 10 years. I did well in fights, because I only needed a set of about 10 precondition-attack combos to fight at the sub-blackbelt level where people don’t get a chance to study their upcoming opponents. But I could never learn the kata (ritualized, pointless dance-like routines that are part of the belt exams), so I gave up advancing. And karate in particular was never fun for me—it was always stressful; I generally dreaded going, a feeling which just got worse and worse over time.
This is a reason why I’m skeptical that pickup can be taught to everyone. It’s a skill that relies on deeply-embedded personality traits that might not be changeable. There can be many people who lack the skill but have the necessary traits, and they can learn. People who lack the skill and the traits, and fail to learn, are dismissed as not trying.
Ironically, you’ve been learning dance in exactly the wrong way. Being able to dance well in a Dance Lesson (or dance troupe) environment is only somewhat correlated to being able to dance well in a salsa club. To use your karate analogy, going to a salsa lesson is equivalent to mastering several Kata; going out dancing at a club is like fighting off a dojo of ninjas with your kung-fu skill. In my own case, I took about four semesters of dance classes before I took the plunge and went out dancing. I quickly realized that while my skills were marginally transferable, I was essentially at the bare-beginner level. Terrorized, I would have abandoned the hobby if it weren’t for the fact that I’d made a lot of friends in my dance class and they made me go out again and again.
Fast forward to present day, and I am usually recommended as the best or one of the best dancers in any venue I go to. I use a standard repertoire of less than 10 moves: Woman left turn, woman right turn, hammerlock turn (behind the back), man right turn, cuddle step, slingshot (not sure the name), a reverse (just undo what you last did), and a pause. I also have half a dozen “flair” moves which can be used in combination with any other moves: kick, body roll, arm flair, body shake, arm wrapping, a twist, and a halt. There’s also a handful of special moves like dips, lifts, and leans. That’s it. In total, it’s a significantly smaller move-set to learn than your average Street Fighter or Soul Calibur character. An extremely advanced dancer might have a significantly expanded move-set, but the sum total of all salsa moves is really quite limited. Learning the moves took about a month of going out; learning to do them well is still ongoing after several years of dancing.
A common problem in dance class is that little understanding is given into why certain combinations or flairs work. As a result, each 20 second sequence is it’s own little ritual which cannot be deviated from. Few instructors explain that if you do a clockwise turn on a girl, you should do a counter-clockwise turn to untangle the arms (or turn yourself clockwise to match). Instead you’re given a dozen different routines which all just happen to pair the same two moves together with some different filler in between. In any other field, the worthlessness of these instructions would be readily apparent. Can you imagine trying to learn Spanish by memorizing every possible phrase, instead of being taught how to conjugate verbs and attach adjectives? The best dance class I ever took (later on) was simply free dancing where an instructor oversaw and gave input. If only I’d been to that class first!
You have trouble with learning long, arbitrary sequences of things. You know it’s a weakness and it’s not benefiting you. So just stop doing that. If your goal is possible, then something else will lead you there.
That sounds encouraging. Thanks! By slingshot you probably mean a cross body lead?
Have you considered taking improvisational dance classes? They teach a variety of exercises (not in the strength-training sense, in the gaining skills sense), improv prompts, and things like that that help you to feel intuitively what to do next. I’m guessing it won’t help you do salsa, but it will help you go to a club and impress folks—and just enjoy dancing more.
All the examples you gave involve physical coordination. Have you tried any activities that involve on-the-spot thinking but not coordination? Debate club and improv theatre are two examples that other people listed in the comments. If you have tried these, I would be curious to know what your experience was like.
As for the coordination thing...I feel your pain. It takes me a lot longer than most people to fit new skills into muscle memory. It took me an entire semester before I could reliably take blood pressure.
I remember my friends in rez used to learn hip-hop routines by watching Youtube videos. I wonder if being able to pause a video and observe each frame would help you? It would allow you to learn the moves at your own pace, but if you’re not very aware of your own body, it might be hard without the feedback of an instructor.
I’m not good at wit or banter. I live-action roleplay, and of course used to tabletop roleplay; and I like improv games, like Once Upon a Time. I’m pretty good at those. Baron Munchausen is difficult for me—but the only group I’ve seen play it well was a group of professional fantasy authors. That game terrifies most people.
I don’t think coordination is the problem. It’s not like I know what to do but have difficulty doing it. There are just too many variables to keep track of.
Your difficulty with martial arts sounds like it’s mostly because that particular martial art doesn’t agree with you. There’s an immense variation in the styles of martial arts, and it’s very important to try several and find the one that works best for you. But then you said you’ve been doing it for about 10 years, so you probably know that.
You sound like you would benefit from one of the ones that puts a lot of emphasis on pair work, like Shorinji Kempo (it’s quite obscure everywhere except Japan). It does have katas, but not many, and they all have pair-form versions, which helps with figuring out why you’re doing each particular move.
Have you tried looking for teachers who specialize in beginners and/or searching for teachers who are willing to break things down farther?
I hadn’t mentioned this before when I had gotten dating advice, and I know the question isn’t for me, but: even in a metro area of ~200k, the “dance class” thing doesn’t seem to be a real option. Every one I’ve checked here says “must bring partner”.
*facepalm*
I see that sometimes for ballroom classes, but not for latin dancing.
If there is no such dance class in a metro area of 200,000 people, you should probably rent a building, hire a teacher, and open a dance studio.
Try community colleges and local YMCAs and recreation centers. Dance studios are often much more expensive. $15 per group lesson is pretty standard around DC.
I bet you can find a partner to bring, if you’re willing to ask a woman whom you consider below your dating standards. There may be resulting complications, so use your judgement.
If the sequence is too complicated than you are taking a class that’s above your level.
If you have done a lot of Salsa lessons than you might feel that you should be able to go to the intermediate level classes. If you however can’t follow those than you should continue with the beginner classes.
Duplication isn’t that bad. It doesn’t prevent you from having a fun dance on the dance floor. You don’t need 100 different moves either (if you define 1 moves as what you dance to 8 beats). You don’t need to review anything. You just need to make a new move from the hand position in which the last move ended.