Agreed, what we learn as “grammar” in school doesn’t correspond to the real rules of the language we use—either because the “rules” taught are “wrong” (like “not splitting infinitives”), or they’re teaching a different language from the one you learned at home—in fact, I suspect this last one is the main reason schools feature prominently teaching something that people learn naturally : it’s part of an effort from central governments to impose a common language to the whole nation, instead of the local dialects that existed before widespread schooling. Teaching grammar rules explicitly makes sense if you’re teaching a second language (which was the case for Welsh kids learning English, or Basque kids learning French).
The fact is that almost everything most educated Americans believe about English grammar is wrong. In part this is because of misconceptions concerning the facts. In part it is because hopeless descriptive classifications and antiquated theoretical assumptions doom all discussion to failure. Amazingly, almost nothing has changed in over a hundred years.
… though his conclusion seems to be “teach the correct rules of grammar at school”, whereas mine is more “what’s the point? People figure out the rules independently of what factoids they’re forced to memorize in school”.
“what’s the point? People figure out the rules independently of what factoids they’re forced to memorize in school”.
If there is a point in teaching biology, why not teach grammar, in a descriptive way? That language has some structure which can be analysed is something most people would not spontaneously realise, and even if they did, they would not have the common terminology. Without learning about grammar of my native language it would be far harder for me to understand the explanations of grammar of foreign languages.
Agreed, making it easier to learn foreign languages is an important function. As is learning to reason about abstract rule systems in general. And preventing the language from splitting into dialects as they do when left to themselves (though I suspect modern media makes this much less of a risk than it was 200 years ago).
I think what I’m mostly railing against is lost purposes—we teach things to kids without why being at the front of our minds. Which means that when the needs change (for example, once local dialects are pretty much eliminated in your country, as seems to be the case with France and Russia), you don’t adjust the strategy accordingly. And you don’t look as hard for alternate ways of reaching that goal.
For example, if the main advantage of grammar classes is that they make it easier to learn foreign languages, it might be useful to integrate that aspect in grammar lessons; once the basics are covered, instead of teaching more complex concepts (like subjunctives in French), explain how those basics are different in other languages the kids are already learning (this would make sense for France—the grammar is complicated and foreign languages are introduced early because of the EU; it may not make as much sense for the US).
(Note that I don’t have a very good grasp of the teaching of English grammar, I’m mostly working for my experience from French. I was mostly schooled in France, and spoke English at home , so I don’t know how much grammar is inflicted on English-speakers at school)
Teaching grammar is probably not the same thing as teaching the standard variant of the language. People can be told what an infinitive is without being commanded not to split it. On the other hand, they can learn to speak like the British queen simply by observing the queen, without being taught how to tell apart subject and object.
The purpose of the former is to promote understanding of how language works, and maybe to help people to structure their sentences and speak more clearly (if needed) or make foreign language learning easier.
As for the latter, the purpose might be dialect elimination, but I am not sure. I don’t know how much exactly the local dialects are eliminated in France or Russia, but in the Czech Republic, where I come from, the local dialects are not eliminated. There is complete mutual intelligibility between all dialects (and almost complete mutual intelligibility with Slovak language and its dialects), but the difference between how most people really speak and the standard language taught in schools is substantial. I have read that such (or even greater) diglossia exists also within Finnish, all variants of Arabic, Greek or Welsh.
Dialect elimination was an important reason probably in France where language unfication was an openly admitted political goal and “patois” have had very low status, but I suspect not everywhere. (France still has problems with recognising minority languages and has probably the most restrictive language policy in Europe.) Since I have not been schooled in France, I have never been told in school that dialects are bad or that I should speak always the literary standard. The standard was intended mostly for writing and official communication (e.g. TV news) and in private communication people are expected to use whatever dialect they speak natively.
I think that importance of teaching a standard language is probably overrated, but still it does probably make language changes slower, which can be good since future generations will need translations of today’s texts later (maybe not an important issue since we will have good automatic translators soon). People also tend to treat the standard form of whatever language they speak as a terminal value, which is harder to argue about.
The learning foreign languages point is a good one. Knowing the descriptive principles seems far more useful for that purpose than for anything to do with actual usage of the primary language itself. (Second most important use: knowing which words are acceptable when playing Scrabble!)
it’s part of an effort from central governments to impose a common language to the whole nation, instead of the local dialects that existed before widespread schooling.
This is not necessarily a bad thing. How useful a language is to you depends on how many other people speak it.
Western governments seem somewhat reticent to talk about how they crushed local dialects in the name of “education” (for understandable political reasons—it doesn’t sound very good when presented like that, and gives arguments to local separatists); maybe it would be better if they just ’fessed up and said “Oh OK we admit those “grammar lessons” in school were just a pretext to impose linguistic uniformity; not that we have that we can drop those pointless lessons”.
What would happen if the government dropped grammar lessons. Is the parents who could afford to would arrange for special grammar tutors for their children. The version taught by those tutors would then become a signal of high status and other parents would demand that their children be taught it as well.
Would they really? I’m not a parent, but I at least like to think I’d spend extra money teaching my kids useful things that are also status signals, like economics or calculus or writing (real writing, not “don’t split infinitives”). Basically anything you could easily get tutoring for is a better use of time and money than grammar education.
And are the kids going to give everyone they meat a lecture on calculus?
Also, the rules probably wouldn’t include “don’t split infinitives”. Using that as your mental example is skewing your intuition.
Notice that on most internet forums posts with bad spelling and grammar are taken less seriously. This is because readers see that they signal low quality content.
Would you still say that if you lived in an area where the local, everyday language was of exceptionally low status—e.g. Ebonics, Brummie, or Neapolitan?
I don’t think the conclusion is “teach the correct rules of grammar at school”. The people at Language Log are thoroughly descriptivist as I suspect is most of modern linguistics.
That’s not a contradiction. “Teach the correct rules of grammar at school” doesn’t mean “teach people how to speak properly according to some prescriptive standard”, it means “teach people (something approximating) the actual syntax of the English language so they can discuss it sensibly and understand something of what is actually happening when they put sentences together”. (As opposed to the currently commonly taught “traditional grammar” which attempts to describe English but just gets it wrong.)
I agree they’re descriptivist; by “the correct rules” I meant “the rules that govern the way people actually speak” (in which case “teaching the rules” would be more “showing people what the rules are” and not “instructing people which rules they should follow”, the same way a biology class on digestion doesn’t tell people how to digest.)
But then I haven’t done an in-depth research on the education policy advocated on Language Log.
Agreed, what we learn as “grammar” in school doesn’t correspond to the real rules of the language we use—either because the “rules” taught are “wrong” (like “not splitting infinitives”), or they’re teaching a different language from the one you learned at home—in fact, I suspect this last one is the main reason schools feature prominently teaching something that people learn naturally : it’s part of an effort from central governments to impose a common language to the whole nation, instead of the local dialects that existed before widespread schooling. Teaching grammar rules explicitly makes sense if you’re teaching a second language (which was the case for Welsh kids learning English, or Basque kids learning French).
here’s a linguist writing about something similar:
… though his conclusion seems to be “teach the correct rules of grammar at school”, whereas mine is more “what’s the point? People figure out the rules independently of what factoids they’re forced to memorize in school”.
If there is a point in teaching biology, why not teach grammar, in a descriptive way? That language has some structure which can be analysed is something most people would not spontaneously realise, and even if they did, they would not have the common terminology. Without learning about grammar of my native language it would be far harder for me to understand the explanations of grammar of foreign languages.
Agreed, making it easier to learn foreign languages is an important function. As is learning to reason about abstract rule systems in general. And preventing the language from splitting into dialects as they do when left to themselves (though I suspect modern media makes this much less of a risk than it was 200 years ago).
I think what I’m mostly railing against is lost purposes—we teach things to kids without why being at the front of our minds. Which means that when the needs change (for example, once local dialects are pretty much eliminated in your country, as seems to be the case with France and Russia), you don’t adjust the strategy accordingly. And you don’t look as hard for alternate ways of reaching that goal.
For example, if the main advantage of grammar classes is that they make it easier to learn foreign languages, it might be useful to integrate that aspect in grammar lessons; once the basics are covered, instead of teaching more complex concepts (like subjunctives in French), explain how those basics are different in other languages the kids are already learning (this would make sense for France—the grammar is complicated and foreign languages are introduced early because of the EU; it may not make as much sense for the US).
(Note that I don’t have a very good grasp of the teaching of English grammar, I’m mostly working for my experience from French. I was mostly schooled in France, and spoke English at home , so I don’t know how much grammar is inflicted on English-speakers at school)
Teaching grammar is probably not the same thing as teaching the standard variant of the language. People can be told what an infinitive is without being commanded not to split it. On the other hand, they can learn to speak like the British queen simply by observing the queen, without being taught how to tell apart subject and object.
The purpose of the former is to promote understanding of how language works, and maybe to help people to structure their sentences and speak more clearly (if needed) or make foreign language learning easier.
As for the latter, the purpose might be dialect elimination, but I am not sure. I don’t know how much exactly the local dialects are eliminated in France or Russia, but in the Czech Republic, where I come from, the local dialects are not eliminated. There is complete mutual intelligibility between all dialects (and almost complete mutual intelligibility with Slovak language and its dialects), but the difference between how most people really speak and the standard language taught in schools is substantial. I have read that such (or even greater) diglossia exists also within Finnish, all variants of Arabic, Greek or Welsh.
Dialect elimination was an important reason probably in France where language unfication was an openly admitted political goal and “patois” have had very low status, but I suspect not everywhere. (France still has problems with recognising minority languages and has probably the most restrictive language policy in Europe.) Since I have not been schooled in France, I have never been told in school that dialects are bad or that I should speak always the literary standard. The standard was intended mostly for writing and official communication (e.g. TV news) and in private communication people are expected to use whatever dialect they speak natively.
I think that importance of teaching a standard language is probably overrated, but still it does probably make language changes slower, which can be good since future generations will need translations of today’s texts later (maybe not an important issue since we will have good automatic translators soon). People also tend to treat the standard form of whatever language they speak as a terminal value, which is harder to argue about.
The learning foreign languages point is a good one. Knowing the descriptive principles seems far more useful for that purpose than for anything to do with actual usage of the primary language itself. (Second most important use: knowing which words are acceptable when playing Scrabble!)
This is not necessarily a bad thing. How useful a language is to you depends on how many other people speak it.
I fully agree!
Western governments seem somewhat reticent to talk about how they crushed local dialects in the name of “education” (for understandable political reasons—it doesn’t sound very good when presented like that, and gives arguments to local separatists); maybe it would be better if they just ’fessed up and said “Oh OK we admit those “grammar lessons” in school were just a pretext to impose linguistic uniformity; not that we have that we can drop those pointless lessons”.
What would happen if the government dropped grammar lessons. Is the parents who could afford to would arrange for special grammar tutors for their children. The version taught by those tutors would then become a signal of high status and other parents would demand that their children be taught it as well.
Would they really? I’m not a parent, but I at least like to think I’d spend extra money teaching my kids useful things that are also status signals, like economics or calculus or writing (real writing, not “don’t split infinitives”). Basically anything you could easily get tutoring for is a better use of time and money than grammar education.
And are the kids going to give everyone they meat a lecture on calculus?
Also, the rules probably wouldn’t include “don’t split infinitives”. Using that as your mental example is skewing your intuition.
Notice that on most internet forums posts with bad spelling and grammar are taken less seriously. This is because readers see that they signal low quality content.
I’m wondering if this was deliberate, to illustrate your point.
If so, bravo, it worked really well.
Actually, it was a typo, but now that you mentioned it, it does help, so I’ll leave it up.
Would you still say that if you lived in an area where the local, everyday language was of exceptionally low status—e.g. Ebonics, Brummie, or Neapolitan?
I don’t think the conclusion is “teach the correct rules of grammar at school”. The people at Language Log are thoroughly descriptivist as I suspect is most of modern linguistics.
That’s not a contradiction. “Teach the correct rules of grammar at school” doesn’t mean “teach people how to speak properly according to some prescriptive standard”, it means “teach people (something approximating) the actual syntax of the English language so they can discuss it sensibly and understand something of what is actually happening when they put sentences together”. (As opposed to the currently commonly taught “traditional grammar” which attempts to describe English but just gets it wrong.)
I agree they’re descriptivist; by “the correct rules” I meant “the rules that govern the way people actually speak” (in which case “teaching the rules” would be more “showing people what the rules are” and not “instructing people which rules they should follow”, the same way a biology class on digestion doesn’t tell people how to digest.)
But then I haven’t done an in-depth research on the education policy advocated on Language Log.