The low-hanging fruit is already gathered. That list (outside of AI/decision theory references) looks useful for discussing questions of priority and for gathering real-world data (where it refers to psychological experiments). Bostrom’s group and Drescher’s and Pearl’s work we already know, pointing these out is not a clear example of potential fruits of the quest for scholarship in philosophy (confusingly enough, but keep in mind the low-hanging fruit part, and the means for finding these being unrelated to scholarship in philosophy; also, being on the lookout for self-contained significant useful stuff is the kind of activity I was more optimistic about in my comment).
I don’t get it. When low-hanging fruit is covered on Less Wrong, it’s considered useful stuff. When low-hanging fruit comes from mainstream philosophy, it supposedly doesn’t help show that mainstream philosophy is useful. If that’s what’s going on, it’s a double standard, and a desperate attempt to “show” that mainstream philosophy isn’t useful.
Also, saying “Well, we already know about lots of mainstream philosophy that’s useful” is direct support for the central claim of my original post: That mainstream philosophy can be useful and shouldn’t be ignored.
Most of the stuff already written on Less Wrong is not useful to the present me in the same sense as philosophy isn’t, because I already learned what I expected to be the useful bits. I won’t be going on a quest for scholarship in Less Wrong either. And if I need to prepare an apprentice, I would give them some LW sequences and Good and Real first (on the philosophy side), and looking through mainstream philosophy won’t come up for a long time.
These two use cases are the ones that matter to me, what use case did you think about? Just intuitive “usefulness” is too unclear.
I agree that mainstream philosophy is far from the first or most important thing one can study.
The use case I’m particularly focused on is machine ethics for self-modifying superintelligence. That draws on a huge host of issues discussed at length in the mainstream literature, including much of the material I listed below, and also stuff I haven’t mentioned yet on the problems with reflective equilibrium (which CEV uses), consequentialism, and so on.
The use case I’m particularly focused on is machine ethics for self-modifying superintelligence.
Well, I don’t share your expectation to learn useful stuff (on the philosophy side) about that, what you won’t find in AI textbooks, metaethics sequence, FHI papers, Good and Real, and other sources already located.
But some of the sources you just listed are from mainstream philosophy...
Again, location of those sources was not (and were it otherwise, could well be not) a product of scholarship in mainstream philosophy, which subtracts from expectation of usefulness of the activity of reading new unknown stuff, which is an altogether different enterprise from reading the stuff that’s already known to be useful.
Also, I’m working on some stuff with regard to machine ethics for superintelligence, so I’ll be curious to find out if you find that as useful as well.
Do you mean, would I find your survey papers/book useful?
Probably not for me, maybe useful as material for new people to study, since it’s focused on this particular problem and so could collect the best relevant things you’ll find, depending on your standard of quality/relevance in selecting things to discuss. From what I saw of your first drafts and other articles, it’ll probably look more like a broad eclectic survey than useful-for-study lecture notes, which subtracts from that use case (but who knows).
Could catalyze conversation in academia or elsewhere though, or work as standard reference node for when you’re in a hurry and don’t want to dereference it.
(Compare with Chalmers’ paper, which is all fine in the general outline, generates a citation node, allows to introduce people from particular background to motivation for AGI-risks-related discussion, and has already initiated discussion in academia. But it’s not useful as study material, given available alternatives, nor does it say anything new.)
Again, location of those sources was not… a product of scholarship in mainstream philosophy...
I think we agree on this so I’ll drop it. My original post claimed that mainstream philosophy makes useful contributions and should not be ignored, and you agree. We also agree that poring through the resources of mainstream philosophy is not the best use for pretty much anyone’s time.
As for my forthcoming work on machine ethics for superintelligence...
maybe useful as material for new people to study
Yep. I want to write short, broad, well-cited overviews of the subjects relevant to Friendly AI, something that mostly has not yet been done.
Could catalyze conversation in academia or elsewhere
Yes.
[could] work as standard reference node for when you’re in a hurry
Right.
You’ve hit on most of the immediate goals of such work, though eventually my intention is to contribute to more of the cutting-edge stuff on Friendly AI, for example on how reflective equilibrium could be programmatically implemented in CEV. But that’s getting ahead of myself. Also, it’s doubtful that such work will actually materialize, because of the whole ‘not being independently wealthy’ problem I have. Research takes time, and I’ve got rent to pay.
What’s the low-hanging fruit mixed with? If I have a concentrated basket of low-hanging fruit, I call that an introductory textbook and I eat it. Extending the tortured metaphor, if I find too much bad fruit in the same basket, I shop for the same fruit at a different store.
The low-hanging fruit is already gathered. That list (outside of AI/decision theory references) looks useful for discussing questions of priority and for gathering real-world data (where it refers to psychological experiments). Bostrom’s group and Drescher’s and Pearl’s work we already know, pointing these out is not a clear example of potential fruits of the quest for scholarship in philosophy (confusingly enough, but keep in mind the low-hanging fruit part, and the means for finding these being unrelated to scholarship in philosophy; also, being on the lookout for self-contained significant useful stuff is the kind of activity I was more optimistic about in my comment).
I don’t get it. When low-hanging fruit is covered on Less Wrong, it’s considered useful stuff. When low-hanging fruit comes from mainstream philosophy, it supposedly doesn’t help show that mainstream philosophy is useful. If that’s what’s going on, it’s a double standard, and a desperate attempt to “show” that mainstream philosophy isn’t useful.
Also, saying “Well, we already know about lots of mainstream philosophy that’s useful” is direct support for the central claim of my original post: That mainstream philosophy can be useful and shouldn’t be ignored.
Most of the stuff already written on Less Wrong is not useful to the present me in the same sense as philosophy isn’t, because I already learned what I expected to be the useful bits. I won’t be going on a quest for scholarship in Less Wrong either. And if I need to prepare an apprentice, I would give them some LW sequences and Good and Real first (on the philosophy side), and looking through mainstream philosophy won’t come up for a long time.
These two use cases are the ones that matter to me, what use case did you think about? Just intuitive “usefulness” is too unclear.
I agree that mainstream philosophy is far from the first or most important thing one can study.
The use case I’m particularly focused on is machine ethics for self-modifying superintelligence. That draws on a huge host of issues discussed at length in the mainstream literature, including much of the material I listed below, and also stuff I haven’t mentioned yet on the problems with reflective equilibrium (which CEV uses), consequentialism, and so on.
Well, I don’t share your expectation to learn useful stuff (on the philosophy side) about that, what you won’t find in AI textbooks, metaethics sequence, FHI papers, Good and Real, and other sources already located.
But some of the sources you just listed are from mainstream philosophy...
Also, I’m working on some stuff with regard to machine ethics for superintelligence, so I’ll be curious to find out if you find that useful as well.
Again, location of those sources was not (and were it otherwise, could well be not) a product of scholarship in mainstream philosophy, which subtracts from expectation of usefulness of the activity of reading new unknown stuff, which is an altogether different enterprise from reading the stuff that’s already known to be useful.
Do you mean, would I find your survey papers/book useful?
Probably not for me, maybe useful as material for new people to study, since it’s focused on this particular problem and so could collect the best relevant things you’ll find, depending on your standard of quality/relevance in selecting things to discuss. From what I saw of your first drafts and other articles, it’ll probably look more like a broad eclectic survey than useful-for-study lecture notes, which subtracts from that use case (but who knows).
Could catalyze conversation in academia or elsewhere though, or work as standard reference node for when you’re in a hurry and don’t want to dereference it.
(Compare with Chalmers’ paper, which is all fine in the general outline, generates a citation node, allows to introduce people from particular background to motivation for AGI-risks-related discussion, and has already initiated discussion in academia. But it’s not useful as study material, given available alternatives, nor does it say anything new.)
I think we agree on this so I’ll drop it. My original post claimed that mainstream philosophy makes useful contributions and should not be ignored, and you agree. We also agree that poring through the resources of mainstream philosophy is not the best use for pretty much anyone’s time.
As for my forthcoming work on machine ethics for superintelligence...
Yep. I want to write short, broad, well-cited overviews of the subjects relevant to Friendly AI, something that mostly has not yet been done.
Yes.
Right.
You’ve hit on most of the immediate goals of such work, though eventually my intention is to contribute to more of the cutting-edge stuff on Friendly AI, for example on how reflective equilibrium could be programmatically implemented in CEV. But that’s getting ahead of myself. Also, it’s doubtful that such work will actually materialize, because of the whole ‘not being independently wealthy’ problem I have. Research takes time, and I’ve got rent to pay.
What’s the low-hanging fruit mixed with? If I have a concentrated basket of low-hanging fruit, I call that an introductory textbook and I eat it. Extending the tortured metaphor, if I find too much bad fruit in the same basket, I shop for the same fruit at a different store.