But is it necessarily unlikely that they would be screwing with us if they existed? That’s something I don’t like about the bigfoot comparison, it’s obviously laughable that large apes are evading camera detection at every turn, but with aliens, presumably it would be trivial to do so. We know that they would have the means, so that only leaves the reasoning to do this. I also don’t necessarily agree with the assumption that our commercial sensor tech is good enough to detect hypothetical aliens. Try filming a drone from a distance with your phone. It will look surprisingly unclear. Modern cameras are obviously more than adequate to film a bigfoot but I don’t think so for aliens-the sky is big etc.
What I didn’t get from your post is how the prosaic sensor anomalies/atmospheric oddities and statistical artifacts etc lends itself to explaining the much more zany claims that are now coming out of intelligence and intelligence connected people. It doesn’t seem to explain someone claiming there are actual recovered bodies/craft, at all. My take on that is the psyops/disinfo angle you wrote off becomes much more likely.
Given real aliens, they would need to either have capped tech or actively trolling to explain even low quality observations or pieces of craft. Nonintervention laws and incorrigible global anti-high-tech supervision constraining aliens are somewhat plausible, coordinated trolling less so.
Given real aliens, how can you be sure of making any claims at all about their civilization/technology/culture/anything without having the sort of observational evidence that would be necessary to make such claims?
We’re in Cartesian Demon territory when discussing these theoretical others. We can plop our human notions on top of them all we want, but unless we have direct, observable evidence of the way “they” think/operate/whatever, we can just as easily assume any given conclusion about them as just as likely as any other. And that includes all the N conclusions we haven’t even thought of (or simply can’t conceive of due to our necessarily human viewpoint).
It seems wildly overconfident to make any claims about them at all that aren’t completely hypothetical in the way you describe in your other reply here. Your idea that they either have to have capped tech or be actively trolling is itself just a hypothesis at best, and an idea at worst.
All filtered evidence is good for is formulating hypotheses, or even just inspiring ideas that are not hypotheses.
We can consider whatever, there is no fundamental duty to only think in particular ways. The useful constraints are on declaring something a claim of fact, not muddying epistemic commons or damaging decision relevant considerations; and in large quantities, on what makes terrible training data for the brain, damaging the aspects with known good properties. Everything else is work in progress, with boundaries impossible to codify while remaining on human level.
I don’t think I have any argument that it’s unlikely aliens are screwing with us—I just feel it is, personally.
I definitely don’t assume our sensors are good enough to detect aliens. I’m specifically arguing we aren’t detecting alien aircraft, not that alien aircraft aren’t here. That sound like a silly distinction, but I’d genuinely give much higher probability to “there are totally undetected alien aircraft on earth” than “we are detecting glimpses of alien aircraft on earth.”
Regarding your last point, I totally agree those things wouldn’t explain the weird claims we get from intelligence-connected people. (Except indirectly—e.g. rumors spread more easily when people think something is possible for other reasons.) I think that our full set of observations are hard to explain without aliens! That is, I think P[everything | aliens] is low. I just think P[everything | no aliens] is even lower.
As for Bigfoot: while I don’t believe it exists, I think Its wrong way to think of it as avoiding cameras. The more reasonable explanation is that cameras avoid the places where it could possibly live. Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti, and similar Apemen are almost always reported to live in remote wilderness, and specifically the North of USA, Canada, Russia, China, and of course the Himalayas. It seems like we should be able to spot them, until you realize that the northern wilderness belt that stretches from Alaska to Greenland, and then around Eurasia and back to Alaska is astonishingly big, and almost completely empty of humans. We are talking about a strip of wilderness that has about the same surface area as the Moon, and the possible population of Bigfeet would likely be smaller than the population of chimps in Africa. If every researcher interested in finding Bigfoot went to explore the Big North with all the state of the art equipment they could carry, and they spread evenly to cover maximum area, they would not only not find Bigfoot, but not find each other, due to enormous distances through impassable woodland and mountains.
The problem is that prior to ~1990, there were lots of supposed photographs of Bigfoot, and now there are ~none. So Bigfoots would have to previously been common close to humans but are now uncommon, or all the photos were fake but the other evidence was real. Plus, all of that other evidence has also died out (now that it’s less plausible that they couldn’t have taken any photos). So it’s possible still that Bigfoot exists, but you have to start by throwing out all of the evidence that people have that Bigfoot exists, and then why believe in Bigfoot?
Still, over time it should become more likely to meet Bf, not less; there are more people in general, and more documentary filmmakers, adventurers, tourists, infrared cameras, planes etc
Except if they died out. However, someone should at some point also find bones.
It is quite possible though that over time there are fewer and fewer BFs. They might be going extinct, even without much human interaction. As for finding bones, if the population is low, and their territory so big, it might take centuries.
But is it necessarily unlikely that they would be screwing with us if they existed? That’s something I don’t like about the bigfoot comparison, it’s obviously laughable that large apes are evading camera detection at every turn, but with aliens, presumably it would be trivial to do so. We know that they would have the means, so that only leaves the reasoning to do this. I also don’t necessarily agree with the assumption that our commercial sensor tech is good enough to detect hypothetical aliens. Try filming a drone from a distance with your phone. It will look surprisingly unclear. Modern cameras are obviously more than adequate to film a bigfoot but I don’t think so for aliens-the sky is big etc.
What I didn’t get from your post is how the prosaic sensor anomalies/atmospheric oddities and statistical artifacts etc lends itself to explaining the much more zany claims that are now coming out of intelligence and intelligence connected people. It doesn’t seem to explain someone claiming there are actual recovered bodies/craft, at all. My take on that is the psyops/disinfo angle you wrote off becomes much more likely.
Given real aliens, they would need to either have capped tech or actively trolling to explain even low quality observations or pieces of craft. Nonintervention laws and incorrigible global anti-high-tech supervision constraining aliens are somewhat plausible, coordinated trolling less so.
Given real aliens, how can you be sure of making any claims at all about their civilization/technology/culture/anything without having the sort of observational evidence that would be necessary to make such claims?
We’re in Cartesian Demon territory when discussing these theoretical others. We can plop our human notions on top of them all we want, but unless we have direct, observable evidence of the way “they” think/operate/whatever, we can just as easily assume any given conclusion about them as just as likely as any other. And that includes all the N conclusions we haven’t even thought of (or simply can’t conceive of due to our necessarily human viewpoint).
It seems wildly overconfident to make any claims about them at all that aren’t completely hypothetical in the way you describe in your other reply here. Your idea that they either have to have capped tech or be actively trolling is itself just a hypothesis at best, and an idea at worst.
We can consider whatever, there is no fundamental duty to only think in particular ways. The useful constraints are on declaring something a claim of fact, not muddying epistemic commons or damaging decision relevant considerations; and in large quantities, on what makes terrible training data for the brain, damaging the aspects with known good properties. Everything else is work in progress, with boundaries impossible to codify while remaining on human level.
Some thinking processes seem to be more useful for arriving at true or useful results; paying attention to that property of processes is rationality. This doesn’t disqualify processes of which we know less, that would be throwing away the full current force of your mind.
The other comment is about updating and credences. I’m not engaging in updating or credences in this thread.
I don’t think I have any argument that it’s unlikely aliens are screwing with us—I just feel it is, personally.
I definitely don’t assume our sensors are good enough to detect aliens. I’m specifically arguing we aren’t detecting alien aircraft, not that alien aircraft aren’t here. That sound like a silly distinction, but I’d genuinely give much higher probability to “there are totally undetected alien aircraft on earth” than “we are detecting glimpses of alien aircraft on earth.”
Regarding your last point, I totally agree those things wouldn’t explain the weird claims we get from intelligence-connected people. (Except indirectly—e.g. rumors spread more easily when people think something is possible for other reasons.) I think that our full set of observations are hard to explain without aliens! That is, I think P[everything | aliens] is low. I just think P[everything | no aliens] is even lower.
As for Bigfoot: while I don’t believe it exists, I think Its wrong way to think of it as avoiding cameras. The more reasonable explanation is that cameras avoid the places where it could possibly live. Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Yeti, and similar Apemen are almost always reported to live in remote wilderness, and specifically the North of USA, Canada, Russia, China, and of course the Himalayas. It seems like we should be able to spot them, until you realize that the northern wilderness belt that stretches from Alaska to Greenland, and then around Eurasia and back to Alaska is astonishingly big, and almost completely empty of humans. We are talking about a strip of wilderness that has about the same surface area as the Moon, and the possible population of Bigfeet would likely be smaller than the population of chimps in Africa. If every researcher interested in finding Bigfoot went to explore the Big North with all the state of the art equipment they could carry, and they spread evenly to cover maximum area, they would not only not find Bigfoot, but not find each other, due to enormous distances through impassable woodland and mountains.
The problem is that prior to ~1990, there were lots of supposed photographs of Bigfoot, and now there are ~none. So Bigfoots would have to previously been common close to humans but are now uncommon, or all the photos were fake but the other evidence was real. Plus, all of that other evidence has also died out (now that it’s less plausible that they couldn’t have taken any photos). So it’s possible still that Bigfoot exists, but you have to start by throwing out all of the evidence that people have that Bigfoot exists, and then why believe in Bigfoot?
Still, over time it should become more likely to meet Bf, not less; there are more people in general, and more documentary filmmakers, adventurers, tourists, infrared cameras, planes etc
Except if they died out. However, someone should at some point also find bones.
It is quite possible though that over time there are fewer and fewer BFs. They might be going extinct, even without much human interaction. As for finding bones, if the population is low, and their territory so big, it might take centuries.