Given 12.72, uniform motion of the center of energy is equivalent to conservation of momentum, right? P is const ⇔ dR_e/dt is const.
(I’m guessing 12.72 is in fact correct here, but I guess we can doubt it — I haven’t thought much about how to prove it when fields and relativistic and quantum things are involved. From a cursory look at his comment, Lubos Motl seems to consider it invalid lol ( in https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/3200 ).)
That said, the hypothetical you give is cool and I agree the two principles decouple there! (I intuitively want to save that case by saying the COM is only stationary in a covering space where the train has in fact moved a bunch by the time it stops, but idk how to make this make sense for a different arrangement of portals.) I guess another thing that seems a bit compelling for the two decoupling is that conservation of angular momentum is analogous to conservation of momentum but there’s no angular analogue to the center of mass (that’s rotating uniformly, anyway). I guess another thing that’s a bit compelling is that there’s no nice notion of a center of energy once we view spacetime as being curved ( https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/269273 ). I think I’ve become convinced that conservation of momentum is a significantly bigger principle :). But still, the two seem equivalent to me before one gets to general relativity. (I guess this actually depends a bit on what the proof of 12.72 is like — in particular, if that proof basically uses the conservation of momentum, then I’d be more happy to say that the two aren’t equivalent already for relativity/fields.)
I think the point about angular momentum is a very good way of gesturing at how its possibly different. Angular momentum is conserved, but an isolated system can still rotate itself, by spinning up and then stopping a flywheel (moving the “center of rotation”).
Thank for finding that book and screenshot. Equation 12.72 is directly claiming that momentum is proportional to energy flow (and in the same direction). I am very curious how that intersects with claims common in metamaterials (https://journals.aps.org/pra/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevA.75.053810 ) that the two can flow in opposite directions.
In my post the way I cited Lubos Motl’s comment implicitly rounded it off to “Minkowski is just right” (option [6]), which is indeed his headline and emphasis. But if we are zooming in on him I should admit that his full position is a little more nuanced. My understanding is that he makes 3 points:
(1) - Option [1] is correct. (Abraham gives kinetic momentum, Minkowski the canonical momentum) (2) - In his opinion the kinetic momentum is pointless and gross, and that true physics only concerns itself with the canonical momentum. (3) - As a result of the kinetic momentum being worthless its basically correct to say Minkowski was “just right”(option [6]). This means that the paper proposing option [1] was a waste of time (much ado about nothing), because the difference between believing [1] and believing [6] only matters when doing kinetics, which he doesn’t care about. Finally, having decided that Minkowski was correct in the only way that he thinks matters, he goes off into a nasty side-thing about how Abraham was supposedly incompetent.
So his actual position is sort of [1] and [6] at the same time (because he considers the difference between them inconsequential, as it only applies to kinetics). If he leans more on the [1] side he can consider 12.72 to be valid. But why would he bother? 12.72 is saying something about kinetics, it might as well be invalid. He doesn’t care either way.
He goes on to explicitly say that he thinks 12.72 is invalid. Although I think his logic on this is flawed. He says the glass block breaks the symmetry, which is true for the photon. However, the composite system (photon + glass block) still has translation and boost symmetry, and it is the uniform motion of the center of mass of the composite system that is at stake.
here’s a picture from https://hansandcassady.org/David%20J.%20Griffiths-Introduction%20to%20Electrodynamics-Addison-Wesley%20(2012).pdf :
Given 12.72, uniform motion of the center of energy is equivalent to conservation of momentum, right? P is const ⇔ dR_e/dt is const.
(I’m guessing 12.72 is in fact correct here, but I guess we can doubt it — I haven’t thought much about how to prove it when fields and relativistic and quantum things are involved. From a cursory look at his comment, Lubos Motl seems to consider it invalid lol ( in https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/3200 ).)
That said, the hypothetical you give is cool and I agree the two principles decouple there! (I intuitively want to save that case by saying the COM is only stationary in a covering space where the train has in fact moved a bunch by the time it stops, but idk how to make this make sense for a different arrangement of portals.) I guess another thing that seems a bit compelling for the two decoupling is that conservation of angular momentum is analogous to conservation of momentum but there’s no angular analogue to the center of mass (that’s rotating uniformly, anyway). I guess another thing that’s a bit compelling is that there’s no nice notion of a center of energy once we view spacetime as being curved ( https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/269273 ). I think I’ve become convinced that conservation of momentum is a significantly bigger principle :). But still, the two seem equivalent to me before one gets to general relativity. (I guess this actually depends a bit on what the proof of 12.72 is like — in particular, if that proof basically uses the conservation of momentum, then I’d be more happy to say that the two aren’t equivalent already for relativity/fields.)
I think the point about angular momentum is a very good way of gesturing at how its possibly different. Angular momentum is conserved, but an isolated system can still rotate itself, by spinning up and then stopping a flywheel (moving the “center of rotation”).
Thank for finding that book and screenshot. Equation 12.72 is directly claiming that momentum is proportional to energy flow (and in the same direction). I am very curious how that intersects with claims common in metamaterials (https://journals.aps.org/pra/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevA.75.053810 ) that the two can flow in opposite directions.
In my post the way I cited Lubos Motl’s comment implicitly rounded it off to “Minkowski is just right” (option [6]), which is indeed his headline and emphasis. But if we are zooming in on him I should admit that his full position is a little more nuanced. My understanding is that he makes 3 points:
(1) - Option [1] is correct. (Abraham gives kinetic momentum, Minkowski the canonical momentum)
(2) - In his opinion the kinetic momentum is pointless and gross, and that true physics only concerns itself with the canonical momentum.
(3) - As a result of the kinetic momentum being worthless its basically correct to say Minkowski was “just right”(option [6]). This means that the paper proposing option [1] was a waste of time (much ado about nothing), because the difference between believing [1] and believing [6] only matters when doing kinetics, which he doesn’t care about. Finally, having decided that Minkowski was correct in the only way that he thinks matters, he goes off into a nasty side-thing about how Abraham was supposedly incompetent.
So his actual position is sort of [1] and [6] at the same time (because he considers the difference between them inconsequential, as it only applies to kinetics). If he leans more on the [1] side he can consider 12.72 to be valid. But why would he bother? 12.72 is saying something about kinetics, it might as well be invalid. He doesn’t care either way.
He goes on to explicitly say that he thinks 12.72 is invalid. Although I think his logic on this is flawed. He says the glass block breaks the symmetry, which is true for the photon. However, the composite system (photon + glass block) still has translation and boost symmetry, and it is the uniform motion of the center of mass of the composite system that is at stake.