Good question. Here’s a few thoughts—let me know if these are useful or whether you think I’m barking up the wrong tree.
As you say, the first thing people think of when you say “masochism” is sexual masochism; it’s the root of the word and its primary meaning. I’d prefer to keep it that way than to extend it to cover self-defeating behaviour, which falls about as well on my ears as extending “gay” to mean “lame”.
“Perversion” is judgemental in every other context and has been used to be judgemental about sexuality for years. A neutral word like “behaviour” or “activity” would serve just as well here.
This is harder to pin down, but I just don’t get a feeling from the way you talk about us that you think of us as having a really good time. I promise you, in our own curious way we really are having a lot of fun.
As you say, the first thing people think of when you say “masochism” is sexual masochism; it’s the root of the word and its primary meaning. I’d prefer to keep it that way than to extend it to cover self-defeating behaviour, which falls about as well on my ears as extending “gay” to mean “lame”.
Hmm. I see your point. What Bruce has is called “masochistic personality disorder”, but it could also be called “self-defeating personality disorder.”
“Perversion” is judgemental in every other context and has been used to be judgemental about sexuality for years. A neutral word like “behaviour” or “activity” would serve just as well here.
I wanted to convey that many people have a judgmental attitude towards masochism, and yet don’t have a judgemental attitude towards the other things on the list. If they truly are related, then that’s a very interesting mental disconnect.
Thanks for making the changes you have to the article—they are big improvements from my point of view. It might be good to note in the article that it’s been edited following this discussion, otherwise someone reading the comments might wonder what all the fuss is about!
Yeah, seriously … I only just came back to this, and I’m rather surprised that a community like LessWrong will countenance editing posts without noting the edits.
Technical solution for a technical problem: simple diff, well known for years, works like a charm on every wiki. Then such a question would not even arise.
I just don’t get a feeling from the way you talk about us that you think of us as having a really good time. I promise you, in our own curious way we really are having a lot of fun.
So are people who eat food so spicy that many countries would classify it as a chemical weapon (please note that this is not an exaggeration for humorous effect).
The pleasure-pain connection is an interesting subject in multiple domains, even if Phil’s phrasing was unfortunate.
How would you rephrase it?
Good question. Here’s a few thoughts—let me know if these are useful or whether you think I’m barking up the wrong tree.
As you say, the first thing people think of when you say “masochism” is sexual masochism; it’s the root of the word and its primary meaning. I’d prefer to keep it that way than to extend it to cover self-defeating behaviour, which falls about as well on my ears as extending “gay” to mean “lame”.
“Perversion” is judgemental in every other context and has been used to be judgemental about sexuality for years. A neutral word like “behaviour” or “activity” would serve just as well here.
This is harder to pin down, but I just don’t get a feeling from the way you talk about us that you think of us as having a really good time. I promise you, in our own curious way we really are having a lot of fun.
Okay, sorry, I didn’t see this before.
Hmm. I see your point. What Bruce has is called “masochistic personality disorder”, but it could also be called “self-defeating personality disorder.”
I wanted to convey that many people have a judgmental attitude towards masochism, and yet don’t have a judgemental attitude towards the other things on the list. If they truly are related, then that’s a very interesting mental disconnect.
Thanks for making the changes you have to the article—they are big improvements from my point of view. It might be good to note in the article that it’s been edited following this discussion, otherwise someone reading the comments might wonder what all the fuss is about!
Yeah, seriously … I only just came back to this, and I’m rather surprised that a community like LessWrong will countenance editing posts without noting the edits.
It’s generally frowned upon.
Technical solution for a technical problem: simple diff, well known for years, works like a charm on every wiki. Then such a question would not even arise.
It’s not that surprising—sex is always treated as an exception
So are people who eat food so spicy that many countries would classify it as a chemical weapon (please note that this is not an exaggeration for humorous effect).
The pleasure-pain connection is an interesting subject in multiple domains, even if Phil’s phrasing was unfortunate.