You say you’re becoming more misanthropic; did you use to like more people? What were those people like? Do you have an internal narrative about why you don’t like them anymore?
I used to like more people and to just be able to go up to people and talk to them.
When I was very young I was extremely outgoing. That stopped sometime during elementary school, I don’t really remember when exactly, but it was because I was naive and trusting and people would take advantage of me (stealing stuff from me, copying homework, pranks and “jokes”). I moved to a different town in middle school and was pseudo popular for a year, in that everyone was nice to me and would talk with me. I lapsed back into idealism, and then ended up having no friends again because no one really liked me, they just liked being associated with the novelty that was the new kid. High school was a gradual process wherein I became less and less popular up to the beginning of my senior year, when I began to regain ground. In college I’m isolated.
The people I like are simultaneously independent free-thinkers and compassionate. There’s tension between the two, but it produces interesting people. My favorite person in the world is my little brother who is one year younger than me, he is hilarious in a highbrow intellectual way and always able to find my blind spots and more factually knowledgeable than me, so he corrects me. (My intellectual strength is that I’m good at understanding how different concepts interact and at generating strategies for argumentation. It’s not that he totally dominates me in intellectual discussions, but that I move the discussion forward and he stops it from moving towards the wrong areas.) He shares most of my values and traits except that he’s a harder worker, simultaneously better and worse at social things, and he’s less selfish. He’s ridiculously awesome.
I like people less because social norms have grown more complicated as I grew older and I prefer authenticity, I think. Also, the less time I spend socializing, the less knowledge I have about social norms, and there’s a feedback loop. Additionally, I think many social norms are morally wrong and I’m not willing to engage in them.
I’ve read and now reread that post of yours. However, I don’t think I’ll be able to use any of the advice you give unless I’m encountering these other people often, and there’s sort of a chicken and egg situation here because I’m unable to maintain prolonged interaction with people I dislike. I also don’t think that liking the people would be sufficient to solve my problem, because other people would still dislike me unless I engaged in the kind of behavior that I hate.
There’s also a problem because, now that I think about it, I’m having a hard time identifying positive traits with anyone who I’ve been interacting with, except for the trait of humor. The primary values I’ve listed above, the ones that determine who I really like to be friends with, are values I don’t associate with anyone here (okay, technically there are two people who I would like to get to know better. That raises logistical issues related to my lack of social skill generally though. And despite those two people, it’s still bad that I don’t like more people.)
Overall, I’m frustrated that I have this strong desire to connect with people, but yet almost all of the people available for me to connect with are people who wouldn’t want to or be able connect with me and who I wouldn’t want to or be able to connect with.
My first idea is to ask your brother for advice—he probably has some friends, and if he’s good at correcting you in a way you can appreciate, he might be able to figure out what’s wrong on your end and help you fix it.
Additionally, I think many social norms are morally wrong and I’m not willing to engage in them.
Can you be more specific? Different subcultures use different social norms. There might be one compatible with you.
other people would still dislike me unless I engaged in the kind of behavior that I hate.
I think you’re underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)
I think you’re underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)
I strongly second this. The people who are like you and who you would like most likely also hate the behaviors you don’t want to engage in. By not engaging in them, you may alienate the people you dislike, but you’ll make yourself more interesting to the people you actually do want to hang out with.
I don’t know how many people do the things I’m interested in. I joined a political science club, which seems good so far. I haven’t encountered any other social things I’m interested in though. I need to get more information about what activities are going on in my area, and I should probably expand my areas of interest also.
Yay LessWrong gives me momentary confidence and hope for my social future!
Most clubs go out of their way to get more recruits, in my experience. Jugglers and Capoeiristas both like to put on demos and hand out flyers. If there’s a student center where you are they probably have info on more clubs/hangouts you can go to also.
My first idea is to ask your brother for advice—he probably has some friends, and if he’s good at correcting you in a way you can appreciate, he might be able to figure out what’s wrong on your end and help you fix it.
Interesting. I know him well enough to know that he would dislike the same people who I’m currently disliking, but I think that for whatever reason he might know more about how to find interesting and intelligent people.
As of now, he has more friends than me. We were roughly equal during high school. His social role when he’s in groups is generally to be slightly quieter than average, but then to fire off witty and sarcastic one-liners at certain times. My social role is nothing, I find it hard to function when I’m not problem-solving or analyzing. I didn’t really have friends in high school so much as people who weren’t actively rude to me and who valued my input, to be honest. I should probably figure out a gimmick and stick with it, like what my brother does, the problem is that this feels inauthentic to me. His comes to him naturally whereas I don’t really seem to have any inherent social role.
Can you be more specific? Different subcultures use different social norms. There might be one compatible with you.
Drinking and making jokes about sex. Self congratulatory behavior and bravado. Inauthenticity in general.
I’m uncertain whether everyone is really like this, or whether they’re just signaling that because they’re insecure college freshmen boys and that’s stereotypical behavior and they’re scared of being an outsider. I think it’s probably some of both insofar as they’re internalizing these norms because they find the internalization of these norms advantageous. I hope it will calm down soon if it is primarily signaling, but I don’t think that will actually happen because the underlying factors will still exist and will actually be intensified by this internalization. I expect it will wind down once there’s an external incentive to be responsible or at least to be perceived as responsible, but that will probably take at least a couple years.
This college is too small for legitimate subcultures to exist. I thought that small class sizes would be a benefit, but I never considered that it would caused increased pressure for conformity, which it seems to have done. That sucks.
I think you’re underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)
I feel as though I’m trapped on my college campus. I live in an unfamiliar city of 150,000 people. I’m unsure where else I should go to meet and interact with people my age. I don’t really enjoy anything except playing games and intellectual conversations; I should broaden my areas of interest, I suppose. I don’t know how to get involved in off-campus activities though, or how to find out about them, or whether they exist for people my age. I also tend to be very static and stagnant; one of my major flaws is that I’m reluctant to change habits. This is another part of the reason why I feel trapped.
I don’t really know how to meet new people without broadcasting desperation, either.
I only know a handful of people who I could fairly sum up as having “social roles” in the same way you describe your brother as having. This could be a deficiency on my end, or I could know weird people—or this could be an inadequate model of how social interaction works, and my bet is on the last thing.
they’re insecure college freshmen boys
Have you considered making friends with girls? There will probably be less (though still some) of the things you list among girls, depending on what you mean by “inauthenticity”. (What do you mean by “inauthenticity”?)
that will probably take at least a couple years.
Have you considered making friends with upperclassmen or socializing with professors you like? Why do your friends have to be your age?
This college is too small for legitimate subcultures to exist.
Just how small is this college? Mine had like 400 people and there were types, if not outright subcultures.
I don’t really enjoy anything except playing games
Is there a game store? Those often host gaming events.
and intellectual conversations
Do your friends need to be in-person?
I also tend to be very static and stagnant; one of my major flaws is that I’m reluctant to change habits.
This one could be a problem. Are there any known ways around or through it that are relatively easy to exploit?
I don’t really know how to meet new people without broadcasting desperation, either.
Be there to do something else too, and focus (verbally) on that thing (while striking up conversations, of course).
Have you considered making friends with girls? There will probably be less (though still some) of the things you list among girls, depending on what you mean by “inauthenticity”. (What do you mean by “inauthenticity”?)
Honestly not sure how. I’ve never really ever made friends “on purpose” with people in general. That’s probably a lot of my problem. Then there’s more issues involved when I have to deal with girls, because I have to deal with gender roles or different expectations or whatever.
I’m not intrinsically opposed to the idea. My issue is that I don’t know how to:
Become friends with people unless I interact with them a lot, and that’s not really happening.
Become friends with girls specifically, I assume the issues there with getting to know someone will be even more challenging.
You’re dealing with a social wreck here, basically.
I also don’t think girls tend to be very authentic at my age, but it’s not as though they’d be worse than the guys.
Have you considered making friends with upperclassmen or socializing with professors you like? Why do your friends have to be your age?
I don’t know how to make friends with people I don’t interact with on a more or less daily basis. My friendships have always just “happened”, I’ve never actively pursued them before.
Just how small is this college? Mine had like 400 people and there were types, if not outright subcultures.
600 in my grade, 2000 something total. Maybe I’m just wrong here and am unobservant.
Is there a game store? Those often host gaming events.
I should check for game events in my area, I guess. There’s not one on campus or anything.
Do your friends need to be in-person?
Preferably. I don’t think I could make a very good friendship via the internet.
This one could be a problem. Are there any known ways around or through it that are relatively easy to exploit?
Not sure, I need to fight it.
Be there to do something else too, and focus (verbally) on that thing (while striking up conversations, of course).
Just about everyone arrives to events in groups and I don’t know how to to strike up conversations.
So I’m getting the sense that you were only restricting the demographics of potential friends by default, which is good, since it means there’s more space to look in than you thought. Professors in particular might be good if you mostly want to have intellectual conversations! Show up to office hours, and have intellectual conversations with them!
There’s “authentic” again—what does that mean? My best guess right now is “not wrapped up in signaling” in which case—well, you’re gonna have a bad time. Humans do that. (Though I begin to suspect that you’re oversensitive to it and may be seeing more of it than there is.) But maybe you mean something else.
I don’t think I could make a very good friendship via the internet.
Why not?
I don’t know how to to strike up conversations.
Go up to someone. Ask them a question (“do you know if the food here is any good?”, “can I borrow a pen?”, “is the line for tickets?”) or pay them a compliment (“awesome t-shirt!”, [laughter at a joke they just made], “your presentation just now was fantastic, my favorite part was [x]!”) or stand near them and their group (without being followy if they try to leave) and pick up on something someone in the group says when there’s enough of a break to do it (“yeah, Communism would only work for nonhuman aliens”, “that’s funny, when I was in Japan I didn’t see any kaiju at all!”, “cool, so snakes don’t even have ears? Can they sense vibrations?”). Or the classic standby of: Stick out your hand. “Hi, I’m [chaosmosis]! What’s your name?”
What are the people you like like?
You say you’re becoming more misanthropic; did you use to like more people? What were those people like? Do you have an internal narrative about why you don’t like them anymore?
On Enjoying Disagreeable Company is my post on liking people on purpose.
I used to like more people and to just be able to go up to people and talk to them.
When I was very young I was extremely outgoing. That stopped sometime during elementary school, I don’t really remember when exactly, but it was because I was naive and trusting and people would take advantage of me (stealing stuff from me, copying homework, pranks and “jokes”). I moved to a different town in middle school and was pseudo popular for a year, in that everyone was nice to me and would talk with me. I lapsed back into idealism, and then ended up having no friends again because no one really liked me, they just liked being associated with the novelty that was the new kid. High school was a gradual process wherein I became less and less popular up to the beginning of my senior year, when I began to regain ground. In college I’m isolated.
The people I like are simultaneously independent free-thinkers and compassionate. There’s tension between the two, but it produces interesting people. My favorite person in the world is my little brother who is one year younger than me, he is hilarious in a highbrow intellectual way and always able to find my blind spots and more factually knowledgeable than me, so he corrects me. (My intellectual strength is that I’m good at understanding how different concepts interact and at generating strategies for argumentation. It’s not that he totally dominates me in intellectual discussions, but that I move the discussion forward and he stops it from moving towards the wrong areas.) He shares most of my values and traits except that he’s a harder worker, simultaneously better and worse at social things, and he’s less selfish. He’s ridiculously awesome.
I like people less because social norms have grown more complicated as I grew older and I prefer authenticity, I think. Also, the less time I spend socializing, the less knowledge I have about social norms, and there’s a feedback loop. Additionally, I think many social norms are morally wrong and I’m not willing to engage in them.
I’ve read and now reread that post of yours. However, I don’t think I’ll be able to use any of the advice you give unless I’m encountering these other people often, and there’s sort of a chicken and egg situation here because I’m unable to maintain prolonged interaction with people I dislike. I also don’t think that liking the people would be sufficient to solve my problem, because other people would still dislike me unless I engaged in the kind of behavior that I hate.
There’s also a problem because, now that I think about it, I’m having a hard time identifying positive traits with anyone who I’ve been interacting with, except for the trait of humor. The primary values I’ve listed above, the ones that determine who I really like to be friends with, are values I don’t associate with anyone here (okay, technically there are two people who I would like to get to know better. That raises logistical issues related to my lack of social skill generally though. And despite those two people, it’s still bad that I don’t like more people.)
Overall, I’m frustrated that I have this strong desire to connect with people, but yet almost all of the people available for me to connect with are people who wouldn’t want to or be able connect with me and who I wouldn’t want to or be able to connect with.
My first idea is to ask your brother for advice—he probably has some friends, and if he’s good at correcting you in a way you can appreciate, he might be able to figure out what’s wrong on your end and help you fix it.
Can you be more specific? Different subcultures use different social norms. There might be one compatible with you.
I think you’re underestimating human heterogeneity. The fix for this is to meet many different people, not engage in the kind of behavior you hate, and not bother hanging out with anyone who is put off after you learn that they were put off. You are not overwhelmingly likely to run out of people unless you live in the middle of nowhere. (Do you?)
I strongly second this. The people who are like you and who you would like most likely also hate the behaviors you don’t want to engage in. By not engaging in them, you may alienate the people you dislike, but you’ll make yourself more interesting to the people you actually do want to hang out with.
I don’t know how many people do the things I’m interested in. I joined a political science club, which seems good so far. I haven’t encountered any other social things I’m interested in though. I need to get more information about what activities are going on in my area, and I should probably expand my areas of interest also.
Yay LessWrong gives me momentary confidence and hope for my social future!
Most clubs go out of their way to get more recruits, in my experience. Jugglers and Capoeiristas both like to put on demos and hand out flyers. If there’s a student center where you are they probably have info on more clubs/hangouts you can go to also.
Interesting. I know him well enough to know that he would dislike the same people who I’m currently disliking, but I think that for whatever reason he might know more about how to find interesting and intelligent people.
As of now, he has more friends than me. We were roughly equal during high school. His social role when he’s in groups is generally to be slightly quieter than average, but then to fire off witty and sarcastic one-liners at certain times. My social role is nothing, I find it hard to function when I’m not problem-solving or analyzing. I didn’t really have friends in high school so much as people who weren’t actively rude to me and who valued my input, to be honest. I should probably figure out a gimmick and stick with it, like what my brother does, the problem is that this feels inauthentic to me. His comes to him naturally whereas I don’t really seem to have any inherent social role.
Drinking and making jokes about sex. Self congratulatory behavior and bravado. Inauthenticity in general.
I’m uncertain whether everyone is really like this, or whether they’re just signaling that because they’re insecure college freshmen boys and that’s stereotypical behavior and they’re scared of being an outsider. I think it’s probably some of both insofar as they’re internalizing these norms because they find the internalization of these norms advantageous. I hope it will calm down soon if it is primarily signaling, but I don’t think that will actually happen because the underlying factors will still exist and will actually be intensified by this internalization. I expect it will wind down once there’s an external incentive to be responsible or at least to be perceived as responsible, but that will probably take at least a couple years.
This college is too small for legitimate subcultures to exist. I thought that small class sizes would be a benefit, but I never considered that it would caused increased pressure for conformity, which it seems to have done. That sucks.
I feel as though I’m trapped on my college campus. I live in an unfamiliar city of 150,000 people. I’m unsure where else I should go to meet and interact with people my age. I don’t really enjoy anything except playing games and intellectual conversations; I should broaden my areas of interest, I suppose. I don’t know how to get involved in off-campus activities though, or how to find out about them, or whether they exist for people my age. I also tend to be very static and stagnant; one of my major flaws is that I’m reluctant to change habits. This is another part of the reason why I feel trapped.
I don’t really know how to meet new people without broadcasting desperation, either.
I only know a handful of people who I could fairly sum up as having “social roles” in the same way you describe your brother as having. This could be a deficiency on my end, or I could know weird people—or this could be an inadequate model of how social interaction works, and my bet is on the last thing.
Have you considered making friends with girls? There will probably be less (though still some) of the things you list among girls, depending on what you mean by “inauthenticity”. (What do you mean by “inauthenticity”?)
Have you considered making friends with upperclassmen or socializing with professors you like? Why do your friends have to be your age?
Just how small is this college? Mine had like 400 people and there were types, if not outright subcultures.
Is there a game store? Those often host gaming events.
Do your friends need to be in-person?
This one could be a problem. Are there any known ways around or through it that are relatively easy to exploit?
Be there to do something else too, and focus (verbally) on that thing (while striking up conversations, of course).
Honestly not sure how. I’ve never really ever made friends “on purpose” with people in general. That’s probably a lot of my problem. Then there’s more issues involved when I have to deal with girls, because I have to deal with gender roles or different expectations or whatever.
I’m not intrinsically opposed to the idea. My issue is that I don’t know how to:
Become friends with people unless I interact with them a lot, and that’s not really happening.
Become friends with girls specifically, I assume the issues there with getting to know someone will be even more challenging.
You’re dealing with a social wreck here, basically.
I also don’t think girls tend to be very authentic at my age, but it’s not as though they’d be worse than the guys.
I don’t know how to make friends with people I don’t interact with on a more or less daily basis. My friendships have always just “happened”, I’ve never actively pursued them before.
600 in my grade, 2000 something total. Maybe I’m just wrong here and am unobservant.
I should check for game events in my area, I guess. There’s not one on campus or anything.
Preferably. I don’t think I could make a very good friendship via the internet.
Not sure, I need to fight it.
Just about everyone arrives to events in groups and I don’t know how to to strike up conversations.
So I’m getting the sense that you were only restricting the demographics of potential friends by default, which is good, since it means there’s more space to look in than you thought. Professors in particular might be good if you mostly want to have intellectual conversations! Show up to office hours, and have intellectual conversations with them!
There’s “authentic” again—what does that mean? My best guess right now is “not wrapped up in signaling” in which case—well, you’re gonna have a bad time. Humans do that. (Though I begin to suspect that you’re oversensitive to it and may be seeing more of it than there is.) But maybe you mean something else.
Why not?
Go up to someone. Ask them a question (“do you know if the food here is any good?”, “can I borrow a pen?”, “is the line for tickets?”) or pay them a compliment (“awesome t-shirt!”, [laughter at a joke they just made], “your presentation just now was fantastic, my favorite part was [x]!”) or stand near them and their group (without being followy if they try to leave) and pick up on something someone in the group says when there’s enough of a break to do it (“yeah, Communism would only work for nonhuman aliens”, “that’s funny, when I was in Japan I didn’t see any kaiju at all!”, “cool, so snakes don’t even have ears? Can they sense vibrations?”). Or the classic standby of: Stick out your hand. “Hi, I’m [chaosmosis]! What’s your name?”