I don’t understand why you are singling out the self-control checkbox for this criticism, when it seems to apply equally well to all the other checkboxes also. The closest other item seems to be the endurance one: for me keeping running and keeping working feels subjectively very similar. Both or them would be easier to do if someone pointed a gun at you, both of them depend on how much you care about the worksheet (and also about more inherent rewards, like getting fit, experiencing “runner’s high”, getting work done, experiencing flow state), and both of them will be easier or more difficult for different people.
Your second point, than some people find it easier to concentrate than others, seems to be an argument in favour of considering it a real variable across people?
Maybe what you are objecting against is the name of the item, “self control”, since you think it is not philosophically sound? But things should add up to normality. Being about to concentrate on work seems like an obviously desirable ability. If someone (like me, currently) can’t do it, then it seems very reasonable to want to learn how. Judging by the number of akrasia-posts on Less Wrong, lots of other people think so too. If we currently have no good philosophical analysis of this, then by all means let us try to analyze it better, but let’s not deny that the phenomenon exists.
You’re right, I did a terrible job of trying to verbalize the reasons behind my intuition that the self-control requirement is too vague. Let me try again, starting by talking about the difference between requirements where you have to estimate something, versus requirements where you have to perform something.
For example, I have no problem with the “run a mile” requirement. I don’t care enough about “leveling” to go out and run a mile right now just to prove I can, but I don’t have to—I ran several miles yesterday for non-leveling related reasons, so I know I could do it if I wanted to. The same is true of most of the others: from past experience, I already have probabilities > 80% I could do memory, finance, and creativity; I have a similarly high probability that I couldn’t bake pancakes without gaining new knowledge, and I’m not sure about the strength and programming ones but it would be very easy to find out.
The self-control requirement is different. Could I do it if my life were at stake? I’m near-100% sure I could. Would I do it for the sake of this leveling game? Empirically, no. But that only puts it in the same category as running, which I also wouldn’t do for the sake of this leveling game but which I know I have the necessary skill in. And it may be that the world’s greatest expert in self-control, let’s say the Buddha, also would not do that requirement for the sake of this leveling game (the Buddha cares not for human status and awards).
So we either have to bite the bullet and say that means the Buddha has low self-control, or we have to say “Yeah, but if the Buddha had sufficient incentive, he would do it, so he qualifies”. But in that case, alcoholics also qualify, since if they had sufficient incentive, they would presumably quit drinking.
(for a metaphor, consider a Finances category in which the requirement is “Burn $1000 in bills”. This test is statistically specific for well-off people—only those with at least a spare $1000 could do it, and the more money you have the easier it is to complete—but it’s not statistically sensitive—many people who have the extra money will nevertheless choose not to do it.)
This seems to get a bit closer to why this item confuses me.
I don’t understand why you are singling out the self-control checkbox for this criticism, when it seems to apply equally well to all the other checkboxes also. The closest other item seems to be the endurance one: for me keeping running and keeping working feels subjectively very similar. Both or them would be easier to do if someone pointed a gun at you, both of them depend on how much you care about the worksheet (and also about more inherent rewards, like getting fit, experiencing “runner’s high”, getting work done, experiencing flow state), and both of them will be easier or more difficult for different people.
Your second point, than some people find it easier to concentrate than others, seems to be an argument in favour of considering it a real variable across people?
Maybe what you are objecting against is the name of the item, “self control”, since you think it is not philosophically sound? But things should add up to normality. Being about to concentrate on work seems like an obviously desirable ability. If someone (like me, currently) can’t do it, then it seems very reasonable to want to learn how. Judging by the number of akrasia-posts on Less Wrong, lots of other people think so too. If we currently have no good philosophical analysis of this, then by all means let us try to analyze it better, but let’s not deny that the phenomenon exists.
You’re right, I did a terrible job of trying to verbalize the reasons behind my intuition that the self-control requirement is too vague. Let me try again, starting by talking about the difference between requirements where you have to estimate something, versus requirements where you have to perform something.
For example, I have no problem with the “run a mile” requirement. I don’t care enough about “leveling” to go out and run a mile right now just to prove I can, but I don’t have to—I ran several miles yesterday for non-leveling related reasons, so I know I could do it if I wanted to. The same is true of most of the others: from past experience, I already have probabilities > 80% I could do memory, finance, and creativity; I have a similarly high probability that I couldn’t bake pancakes without gaining new knowledge, and I’m not sure about the strength and programming ones but it would be very easy to find out.
The self-control requirement is different. Could I do it if my life were at stake? I’m near-100% sure I could. Would I do it for the sake of this leveling game? Empirically, no. But that only puts it in the same category as running, which I also wouldn’t do for the sake of this leveling game but which I know I have the necessary skill in. And it may be that the world’s greatest expert in self-control, let’s say the Buddha, also would not do that requirement for the sake of this leveling game (the Buddha cares not for human status and awards).
So we either have to bite the bullet and say that means the Buddha has low self-control, or we have to say “Yeah, but if the Buddha had sufficient incentive, he would do it, so he qualifies”. But in that case, alcoholics also qualify, since if they had sufficient incentive, they would presumably quit drinking.
(for a metaphor, consider a Finances category in which the requirement is “Burn $1000 in bills”. This test is statistically specific for well-off people—only those with at least a spare $1000 could do it, and the more money you have the easier it is to complete—but it’s not statistically sensitive—many people who have the extra money will nevertheless choose not to do it.)
This seems to get a bit closer to why this item confuses me.