I believe there should be a subject in school (and text books to go with it) that goes through all the things that adult citizens should know. I believe this was part of what was called Civics but that is dead or changed to something else. The idea is somewhat dated but it included things like how to vote, how to read a train schedule, that different types of insurance actually were, simple first aid, how to find a book in a library and all sorts of things like that. Today it would be a slightly different list. Somewhere between 10 and 14 seems the ideal age to be interested and learn these sort of things.
I agree. I’ve also long held a different but complementary view: that all establishments should (hopefully, out of the goodness of their hearts) put up signs that basically say, “this is how it works here”.
(For example, at a grocery store in the US, the sign would say something like, “This store sells the items you see inside that have a price label by them. To buy something, take it with you to one of the numbered short aisles [registers] toward the exit and place it on the belt. If you need many items, you may want to use one of the baskets or carts provided near this sign. The store employee at the register will tell you how much the item costs, and you can pay with …”)
While most of it would be obvious to everyone and something parents automatically teach, everyone might find some different part of it to be novel. And I suspect that this easily-correctible “double illusion of transparency”, in which people don’t think such signs would convey anything new, prevents a lot of beneficial activity from happening.
As I live in Germany I have experience with such rule sets. People don’t follow them and instead do whatever they consider to be the obvious thing to do.
Our public transport system has for example the rule that you should stand on the right side of an escalator if you choose to stand. If you choose to walk the escalator you take the left side.
It’s a smart rule and it would be in the public interest if everyone would abide by it. It would make life easier for those who choose who walk the escalator.
Normal people however don’t care and simple stand wherever they want to stand.
Introducing a formal rule set when people are used to following informal rules is hard.
In London, the same convention is in effect on the Underground. Unlike Germany, it is almost always followed, and enforces itself. If you stand on the left, it won’t be long before someone walking will ask you to step aside to let them pass.
There are notices here and there asking people to do this.
The idea is for the sign to describe how it in fact works, not necessarily how they’d like it to work. (A sufficiently detailed sign might explain the distinction, potentially allowed for coordinated punishment of defectors.) That’s why I mentioned the bit about “the goodness of their hearts”. It would probably require a law because of the problem of people stating outright how something “really” works.
(I’ve been to the Hauptbahnhoffs btw—“links gehen, rechts stehen” is the phrase, right?)
Introducing a formal rule set when people are used to following informal rules is hard.
I agree—so the idea instead is to have a sign that can quickly teach people this informal system, since it may be so hard for a newcomer to infer it.
There’s regional variation—I’m told that in DC, people follow escalator “slow on the right, fast on the left” etiquette. In Philadelphia, it’s pretty random.
Would you similarly endorse putting a link up on the front page that explains that “this website displays user-generated content, both in the form of discrete posts and in the form of comments associated either with a post or another comment. To view a post, click the title under “recent posts.” To view comments… etc. etc. etc.”?
Maybe not specifically that, but I recall a lot of new users (and regular users, and critics of users...) complaining that they don’t know e.g. what kinds of comments are appropriate to post under articles, what the pre-requisites for understanding the material and generally stuff that we might just assume they know.
It needs a “how to use the site” section. When the envelope turns red, it means you have a reply or a message. The help link at the bottom of the comment box will tell you how to do formatting, but it’s different formatting methods if you post an article.
There may be useful features on the site that haven’t crossed my path. Finding them seems to be a semi-random process.
The “Preferences” button is worth exploring. In particular, the anti-kibitzer will hide usernames so that you can vote without being biased by your overall like or dislike of various users.
Note on the anti-kibitzer: I use it by default, and find that it prevents me from getting to know the individual users and their views. Although I have gotten to the point where I can sometimes recognize certain posters from their content (Eliezer, Clippy, and Wedrifid mostly).
Although I have gotten to the point where I can sometimes recognize certain posters from their content (Eliezer, Clippy, and Wedrifid mostly).
Some anti-kibitzer users have reported mistaking me for clippy at times! :D
I don’t use anti-kibitzer so I have to allow for hindsight bias—but I’d be willing to bet that I could pick nearly every comment by HughRistik and, if reading with the context as opposed to just the recent comments feed, most of Vladimir_Nesov’s too. Oh, and a lot from Perplexed and timtyler. Picking Alicorn’s posts based on most of them these days being ‘speaking as the Word of God on Luminosity fiction’ would just seem like cheating. ;)
Lesswrong is certainly designed for the advanced user. Most everything on the site is non-standard, which seriously impedes usability for the new user. Considering the topic and intended audience, I’d say it’s a feature, not a bug.
Nonetheless, the site definitely smacks of unix-geekery. It could be humanized somewhat, and that probably wouldn’t hurt.
Very tricky question. I won’t answer it in two ways:
As I indicated, in terms of navigation/organization scheme, LW is completely untraditional. It still feels to me like a dark museum of wonder, of unfathomable depth. I get to something new, and mind-blowing, every time I surf around. So it’s a delightful labyrinth, that unfolds like a series of connected thoughts anyway you work it. It’s an advanced navigation toolset, usable only by people who are able to conceptualize vast abstract constructs… which is the target audience… or is it?
I’ve been in the usability business too long to make UI pronouncements without user research. We’ve got a very specific user base, not defined by typical demo/sociographics, but by affinity. Few common usability heuristics would apply blindly to this case.
Flexible, mobile to wide-screen self-optimizing layout
More personalized features (dashboard, analytics, watch lists, alerts, etc.) although many are implicitly available through feeds, permalinks, etc.
Advanced comments/post management tools for power-users (I’m guessing there might be a need, through I am not one by any means.)
But, again, I think we have a rare thing here: A user base that is smart enough to optimize its own tools. Normally, the best user experience practitioners will tell you that you should research, interview and especially observe your users, but never ever ever just listen to them. They don’t know what they really want, wouldn’t know how to explain it, and what they want isn’t even close to what they actually need. Would LW users be different? And would design by committee work here? I’m very dubious, but curious.
Does anyone know the back-story of how this website evolved? Was it a person, a team, or the whole group designing it?
LW does more to bring its past into the present than any other site I’ve used. I’m thinking that this is partly structure, and partly that the users consider its past posts (much less so with the comments) to be important.
I might be an advanced user—I’m able to use LW and I think I’ve found the major features. [1] On the other hand, I would not have been able to identify the site as being from the style of a particular operating system.
My history goes back to usenet, which is why I keep mentioning that the site needs trn or the equivalent. Still, the way comments are presented is the Least Awful I’ve seen on the web. Trn or slrn might be the kind of thing you mean by advanced comments/post management.
The other thing I think would do the most to keep weaving the past into the present is a better search system. It would help if I could just do a string search which was limited to the posts from a particular user. And if there were a way to get search results arranged chronologically. As far as I can tell, they’re arranged randomly. Something like the advanced search from Google Groups would be really helpful. It can take 10 or 15 minutes for me to find a comment if I manage it at all, and it’s apt to feel like luck.
Only having Recent Comments for LW proper and for LW:Discussion rather than being able to choose Recent Comments for particular threads is of mixed value. I think it does make the site more like one conversation for those who want to put in a lot of time, but that means it’s less useful for those who don’t want to put in that much time and a temptation to kill time for some of the rest.
[1] The site has an abstract resemblance to a bit from one of Doris Piserchia’s novels (Mr. Justice?), in which a school for brilliant children doesn’t offer a map of the buildings, just a map of the local geography. The students are expected to figure out where the buildings are supposed to be.
Civics, at least in my area of the United States, is mainly education about government and ethics. I do believe they may discuss how to vote and other information that would be useful to the democratic process, but nothing like going onto trains. (Although in the United States, this could only ever discuss the subway, and only in certain metropolitan areas—culturally, the elegant train is dead here, which is sad, since I’ve had much more positive travel experiences on trains than planes.)
Ahahahahahahaha where do you live take me with you now. The last time I checked, northern Virginia qualified as the Northeast and the Metro is the only thing like that for miles and miles.
Virginia will always be the south to me. I live in Philadelphia, so for local public transit we have elevated rail, subway, electric trolley bus, light rail, and intercity commuter rail. And then of course there is the high-speed Acela Express connecting the rest of the Northeast Corridor.
The question, then, becomes how common useful home ec courses actually are. E.g. I had one of those back in middle school, but it was close to useless. IIRC, it consisted of cooking and sewing; the former half did nothing to actually explain cooking and so was useless to anyone who didn’t already understand cooking, while the latter half seemed to successfully teach the basics (at least, I think I understand the basics) but isn’t something I’ve ever really had reason to apply. (I think we also discussed nutrition some, but that was redundant as it was already covered in other classes.)
Incidentally, on cooking, if you’re a nerd, learning some of the science of cooking is actually pretty rewarding. Learning how browning occurs, how fats work etc. can improve your cooking somewhat and it’s fun to know. I found The Science of Cooking to be pretty informative.
When I was in middle school, anyone not in band (or sports, I think) took “Family and Consume Science”—FACS. Basically home economics with a spiffy new name. But to be honest, it didn’t teach much that was useful. In HS, there was no course like that. Well, maybe an elective.
I believe there should be a subject in school (and text books to go with it) that goes through all the things that adult citizens should know. I believe this was part of what was called Civics but that is dead or changed to something else. The idea is somewhat dated but it included things like how to vote, how to read a train schedule, that different types of insurance actually were, simple first aid, how to find a book in a library and all sorts of things like that. Today it would be a slightly different list. Somewhere between 10 and 14 seems the ideal age to be interested and learn these sort of things.
I agree. I’ve also long held a different but complementary view: that all establishments should (hopefully, out of the goodness of their hearts) put up signs that basically say, “this is how it works here”.
(For example, at a grocery store in the US, the sign would say something like, “This store sells the items you see inside that have a price label by them. To buy something, take it with you to one of the numbered short aisles [registers] toward the exit and place it on the belt. If you need many items, you may want to use one of the baskets or carts provided near this sign. The store employee at the register will tell you how much the item costs, and you can pay with …”)
While most of it would be obvious to everyone and something parents automatically teach, everyone might find some different part of it to be novel. And I suspect that this easily-correctible “double illusion of transparency”, in which people don’t think such signs would convey anything new, prevents a lot of beneficial activity from happening.
This is particularly helpful for anyone new to the area—immigrants, emigrants, tourists, etc.
As I live in Germany I have experience with such rule sets. People don’t follow them and instead do whatever they consider to be the obvious thing to do.
Our public transport system has for example the rule that you should stand on the right side of an escalator if you choose to stand.
If you choose to walk the escalator you take the left side.
It’s a smart rule and it would be in the public interest if everyone would abide by it. It would make life easier for those who choose who walk the escalator. Normal people however don’t care and simple stand wherever they want to stand.
Introducing a formal rule set when people are used to following informal rules is hard.
In London, the same convention is in effect on the Underground. Unlike Germany, it is almost always followed, and enforces itself. If you stand on the left, it won’t be long before someone walking will ask you to step aside to let them pass.
There are notices here and there asking people to do this.
The idea is for the sign to describe how it in fact works, not necessarily how they’d like it to work. (A sufficiently detailed sign might explain the distinction, potentially allowed for coordinated punishment of defectors.) That’s why I mentioned the bit about “the goodness of their hearts”. It would probably require a law because of the problem of people stating outright how something “really” works.
(I’ve been to the Hauptbahnhoffs btw—“links gehen, rechts stehen” is the phrase, right?)
I agree—so the idea instead is to have a sign that can quickly teach people this informal system, since it may be so hard for a newcomer to infer it.
I thought the right-ide standing was a social convention, not a rule.
What sometimes trips me up is weather I am supposed to weight my vegetables before going to the counter, or if they do it there.
When you put social convention into writing and hang them on the walls they become a rule.
Unfortunately it only seems to be a social convention among those who consider it to be a social convention. :P
That’s too bad. Large airports in the United States have (flat) automated walkways with a similar rule, and people follow it. Very handy!
There’s regional variation—I’m told that in DC, people follow escalator “slow on the right, fast on the left” etiquette. In Philadelphia, it’s pretty random.
Huh.
Would you similarly endorse putting a link up on the front page that explains that “this website displays user-generated content, both in the form of discrete posts and in the form of comments associated either with a post or another comment. To view a post, click the title under “recent posts.” To view comments… etc. etc. etc.”?
Maybe not specifically that, but I recall a lot of new users (and regular users, and critics of users...) complaining that they don’t know e.g. what kinds of comments are appropriate to post under articles, what the pre-requisites for understanding the material and generally stuff that we might just assume they know.
LW does have a good “about” section, though.
It needs a “how to use the site” section. When the envelope turns red, it means you have a reply or a message. The help link at the bottom of the comment box will tell you how to do formatting, but it’s different formatting methods if you post an article.
There may be useful features on the site that haven’t crossed my path. Finding them seems to be a semi-random process.
The “Preferences” button is worth exploring. In particular, the anti-kibitzer will hide usernames so that you can vote without being biased by your overall like or dislike of various users.
Note on the anti-kibitzer: I use it by default, and find that it prevents me from getting to know the individual users and their views. Although I have gotten to the point where I can sometimes recognize certain posters from their content (Eliezer, Clippy, and Wedrifid mostly).
Some anti-kibitzer users have reported mistaking me for clippy at times! :D
I don’t use anti-kibitzer so I have to allow for hindsight bias—but I’d be willing to bet that I could pick nearly every comment by HughRistik and, if reading with the context as opposed to just the recent comments feed, most of Vladimir_Nesov’s too. Oh, and a lot from Perplexed and timtyler. Picking Alicorn’s posts based on most of them these days being ‘speaking as the Word of God on Luminosity fiction’ would just seem like cheating. ;)
Lesswrong is certainly designed for the advanced user. Most everything on the site is non-standard, which seriously impedes usability for the new user. Considering the topic and intended audience, I’d say it’s a feature, not a bug.
Nonetheless, the site definitely smacks of unix-geekery. It could be humanized somewhat, and that probably wouldn’t hurt.
What specific changes would you recommend?
Very tricky question. I won’t answer it in two ways:
As I indicated, in terms of navigation/organization scheme, LW is completely untraditional. It still feels to me like a dark museum of wonder, of unfathomable depth. I get to something new, and mind-blowing, every time I surf around. So it’s a delightful labyrinth, that unfolds like a series of connected thoughts anyway you work it. It’s an advanced navigation toolset, usable only by people who are able to conceptualize vast abstract constructs… which is the target audience… or is it?
I’ve been in the usability business too long to make UI pronouncements without user research. We’ve got a very specific user base, not defined by typical demo/sociographics, but by affinity. Few common usability heuristics would apply blindly to this case.
But among the few that would:
Improved legibility, typographic design, visual hierarchy
Flexible, mobile to wide-screen self-optimizing layout
More personalized features (dashboard, analytics, watch lists, alerts, etc.) although many are implicitly available through feeds, permalinks, etc.
Advanced comments/post management tools for power-users (I’m guessing there might be a need, through I am not one by any means.)
But, again, I think we have a rare thing here: A user base that is smart enough to optimize its own tools. Normally, the best user experience practitioners will tell you that you should research, interview and especially observe your users, but never ever ever just listen to them. They don’t know what they really want, wouldn’t know how to explain it, and what they want isn’t even close to what they actually need. Would LW users be different? And would design by committee work here? I’m very dubious, but curious.
Does anyone know the back-story of how this website evolved? Was it a person, a team, or the whole group designing it?
LW does more to bring its past into the present than any other site I’ve used. I’m thinking that this is partly structure, and partly that the users consider its past posts (much less so with the comments) to be important.
I might be an advanced user—I’m able to use LW and I think I’ve found the major features. [1] On the other hand, I would not have been able to identify the site as being from the style of a particular operating system.
My history goes back to usenet, which is why I keep mentioning that the site needs trn or the equivalent. Still, the way comments are presented is the Least Awful I’ve seen on the web. Trn or slrn might be the kind of thing you mean by advanced comments/post management.
The other thing I think would do the most to keep weaving the past into the present is a better search system. It would help if I could just do a string search which was limited to the posts from a particular user. And if there were a way to get search results arranged chronologically. As far as I can tell, they’re arranged randomly. Something like the advanced search from Google Groups would be really helpful. It can take 10 or 15 minutes for me to find a comment if I manage it at all, and it’s apt to feel like luck.
Only having Recent Comments for LW proper and for LW:Discussion rather than being able to choose Recent Comments for particular threads is of mixed value. I think it does make the site more like one conversation for those who want to put in a lot of time, but that means it’s less useful for those who don’t want to put in that much time and a temptation to kill time for some of the rest.
[1] The site has an abstract resemblance to a bit from one of Doris Piserchia’s novels (Mr. Justice?), in which a school for brilliant children doesn’t offer a map of the buildings, just a map of the local geography. The students are expected to figure out where the buildings are supposed to be.
I am very new to the site, and have, in the short time I have been here, found it to be both a pleasure to navigate and easy to use.
Although I could very well fit under the category of “advanced user”.
Civics, at least in my area of the United States, is mainly education about government and ethics. I do believe they may discuss how to vote and other information that would be useful to the democratic process, but nothing like going onto trains. (Although in the United States, this could only ever discuss the subway, and only in certain metropolitan areas—culturally, the elegant train is dead here, which is sad, since I’ve had much more positive travel experiences on trains than planes.)
Intercity rail is very common here in the northeast.
Ahahahahahahaha where do you live take me with you now. The last time I checked, northern Virginia qualified as the Northeast and the Metro is the only thing like that for miles and miles.
Virginia will always be the south to me. I live in Philadelphia, so for local public transit we have elevated rail, subway, electric trolley bus, light rail, and intercity commuter rail. And then of course there is the high-speed Acela Express connecting the rest of the Northeast Corridor.
“Home Economics” and similar courses teach life skills like cooking, paying bills and doing your taxes.
The question, then, becomes how common useful home ec courses actually are. E.g. I had one of those back in middle school, but it was close to useless. IIRC, it consisted of cooking and sewing; the former half did nothing to actually explain cooking and so was useless to anyone who didn’t already understand cooking, while the latter half seemed to successfully teach the basics (at least, I think I understand the basics) but isn’t something I’ve ever really had reason to apply. (I think we also discussed nutrition some, but that was redundant as it was already covered in other classes.)
Incidentally, on cooking, if you’re a nerd, learning some of the science of cooking is actually pretty rewarding. Learning how browning occurs, how fats work etc. can improve your cooking somewhat and it’s fun to know. I found The Science of Cooking to be pretty informative.
When I was in middle school, anyone not in band (or sports, I think) took “Family and Consume Science”—FACS. Basically home economics with a spiffy new name. But to be honest, it didn’t teach much that was useful. In HS, there was no course like that. Well, maybe an elective.