Do you actually hear the voice? I often have words in my head when I think about things, but there isn’t really an auditory component. It’s just words in a more abstract form.
I wouldn’t say I literally hear the voice; I can easily distinguish it from sounds I’m actually hearing. But the experience is definitely auditory, at least some of the time; I could tell you whether the voice is male or female, what accent they’re speaking in (usually my own), how high or low the voice is, and so on.
I definitely also have non-auditory thoughts as well. Sometimes they’re visual, sometimes they’re spatial, and sometimes they don’t seem to have any sensory-like component at all. (For what it’s worth, visual and spatial thoughts are essential to the way I think about math.)
If you want to poke at this a bit, one way could be to test what sort of interferences disrupt different activities for you, compared to a friend.
I’m thinking of the bit in “Surely you’re joking” where Feynman finds that he can’t talk and maintain a mental counter at the same time, while a friend of his can—because his friend’s mental counter is visual.
Neat. I can do it both ways… actually, I can name at least four different ways of counting:
“Raw” counting, without any sensory component; really just a sense of magnitude. Seems to be a floating-point, with a really small number of bits; I usually lose track of the exact number by, oh, six.
Verbally. Interferes with talking, as you’d expect.
Visually, using actual 2/3D models of whatever I’m counting. No interference, but a strict upper limit, and interferes with seeing—well, usually the other way around. The upper limit still seems to be five-six picture elements, but I can arrange them in various ways to count higher; binary, for starters, but also geometrically or.. various ways.
Visually, using pictures of decimal numbers. That interferes with speaking when updating the number, but otherwise sticks around without any active maintenance, at least so long as I have my eyes closed. I’m still limited to five-six digits, though… either decimal or hexadecimal works. I could probably figure out a more efficient encoding if I worked at it.
I, for one, actually hear the voice. It’s quite clear. Not loud like an actual voice but a “so loud I can’t hear myself think” moment has never literally happened to me since the voice seems more like its on its own track, parallel to my actual hearing. I would never get it confused with actual sounds, though I can’t really separate the hearing it to the making it to be sure of that.
but a “so loud I can’t hear myself think” moment has never literally happened to me since the voice seems more like its on its own track, parallel to my actual hearing.
That’s interesting! Because I have definitely had “so loud I can’t hear myself think” moments (even though I don’t literally hear thoughts) - just two days ago, I had to ask somebody to stop talking for a while so that I could focus.
Being distracted is one thing—I mean literally not being able to hear my thoughts in the manner that I might not be able to hear what you said if a jet was taking off nearby. This was to emphasize that even though I perceive them as sounds there is ‘something’ different about them than sounds-from-ears that seems to prevent them from audibly mingling. Loud noises can still make me lose track of what I was thinking and break focus.
Hmm. Now that I think of it, I’m not sure to what extent it was just distraction and to what extent a literal inability to hear my thoughts. Could’ve been exclusively one, or parts of both.
I added more detail in a sibling post, but it can’t be that universal; I practically never do that at all, basically only for thoughts that are destined to actually be spoken. (Or written, etc.)
Actually, I believe I used to do so most of the time (..about twenty years ago, before the age of ten), but then made a concerted effort to stop doing so on the basis that pretending to speak aloud takes more time. Those memories may be inaccurate, though.
I added more detail in a sibling post, but it can’t be that universal; I practically never do that at all, basically only for thoughts that are destined to actually be spoken.
It very universal but some people shut down their awareness of the process. It’s like people who don’t say they don’t dream. They just don’t remember it. Most people can’t perceive their own heartbeat.
It can take some effort to build awareness.
What’s your internal reaction when someone insults yourself?
You’re claiming that you understand his thought better than he does. That is a severe accusation and is not epistemologically justified. Also, I can’t recall off the top of my head any time somebody insulted me, I think my reaction would depend on the context, but I don’t see why it will involve imagined words.
That is a severe accusation and is not epistemologically justified.
How do you know that there’s no epistemological justification?
So, how do I know? Empirical experience at NLP seminars. At the beginning plenty of people say that they don’t have an internal dialoge, that they can’t view mental images or that they can’t perceive emotions within their own body.
It’s something that usually get’s fixed in a short amount of time.
Around two month ago I was chatting with a girl who had two voices in her head. One that did big picture thinking and another that did analytic thinking. She herself wasn’t consciously aware that one of the voices came from the left and the other from the right.
After I told her which voice came from which direction, she checked and I was right. I can’t diagnose what Baughn does with internal dialog in the same depth through online conversation but there nothing that stops me from putting forth generally observations about people who believe that they have no internal dialog until they were taught to perceive it.
I think my reaction would depend on the context, but I don’t see why it will involve imagined words.
Yes, you don’t seeimagined words. That’s kind of the point of words. You either hear them or don’t hear them. If you try to see them you will fail. If you try to perceive your internal dialog that way you won’t see any internal dialog.
But why did I pick that example? It’s emotional. Being insulted frequently get’s people to reflect on themselves and the other person. They might ask themselves: “Why did he do that?” or answer to themselves “No, he has no basis for making that claim.”
In addition judgement is usually done via words.
I’m however not sure whether I can build up enough awareness in Baughn via text based online conversation that he can pick up his mental dialog.
Also, I can’t recall off the top of my head any time somebody insulted me,
If you don’t have strong internal dialog it doesn’t surprise me that you aren’t good at recalling a type of event that usually goes with strong internal dialog.
Those are interesting claims, but I think you misunderstood a little. I do have an internal monologue, sometimes; I just don’t bother to use it, a lot of the time. It depends on circumstances.
You moved in the span of half a year from: “I’m pretty sure I don’t have a internal monologue, I don’t know what the term is supposed to mean.” to “I do have an internal monologue, sometimes”.
That’s basically my point. With a bit of direction there something that you could recognize there to be an internal monologue in your mind.
Of course once you recognize it, you aren’t in the state anymore where you would say: “I’m pretty sure I don’t have a internal monologue.” That’s typical for those kind of issues.
I was basically right with my claim that “I’m pretty sure I don’t have a internal monologue.” is wrong, and did what it took to for you to recognize it.
itaibn0 claimed that the claim was etymologically unsubstantiated. It was substantiated and turned out to be right.
Actually, I would have made the same claim half a year ago. The only difference is that I have a different model of what the words “internal monologue” mean—that, and I’ve done some extra modelling and introspection for a novel.
Yes, now you have a mental model that allows you to believe “I do have an internal monologue, sometimes” back then you didn’t. What I did write was intended to create that model in your mind.
To me it seems like it worked. It’s also typical that people backport their mental models into the past when they remember what happened in the past.
So, how do I know? Empirical experience at NLP seminars. At the beginning plenty of people say that they don’t have an internal dialoge, that they can’t view mental images or that they can’t perceive emotions within their own body.
It’s something that usually get’s fixed in a short amount of time.
First different people use different system with underlying strength. Some people like Tesla can visualize a chair and the chair they visualize get’s perceived by them the same way as a real chair.
You don’t get someone who doesn’t think he can visualize pictures to that level of visualization ability by doing a few tricks.
In general you do something that triggers a reaction in someone. You observe the person and when she has the image or has the dialog you stop and tell the person to focus their attention on it.
There are cases where that’s enough.
There are also cases where a person has a real reason why they repress a certain way of perception.
A person with a strong emotional trauma might have completely stopped relating to emotions within their body to escape the emotional pain.
Then it’s necessary for the person to become into a state where they are resourceful enough to face the pain so that they can process it.
A third layer would consist of different suggestion that it’s possible to perceive something new. Both at a conscious level and on a deep metaphoric level.
I just do what I feel like. And my feelings are generally in line with my previous experiences with the other person. If I feel like they’re a reasonable person and generally nice then I feel like giving them the benefit of the doubt, if I feel like they’re a total toss-pot then I’m liable to fire back at them. There’s so much cached thought that’s felt rather than verbalised at that point that it’s pretty much a reaction.
When I think about stuff, often I imagine a voice speaking some of the thoughts. This seems to me to be a common, if not nearly universal, experience.
I only really think using voices. Whenever I read, if I’m not ‘hearing’ the words in my head, nothing stays in.
Do you actually hear the voice? I often have words in my head when I think about things, but there isn’t really an auditory component. It’s just words in a more abstract form.
I wouldn’t say I literally hear the voice; I can easily distinguish it from sounds I’m actually hearing. But the experience is definitely auditory, at least some of the time; I could tell you whether the voice is male or female, what accent they’re speaking in (usually my own), how high or low the voice is, and so on.
I definitely also have non-auditory thoughts as well. Sometimes they’re visual, sometimes they’re spatial, and sometimes they don’t seem to have any sensory-like component at all. (For what it’s worth, visual and spatial thoughts are essential to the way I think about math.)
If you want to poke at this a bit, one way could be to test what sort of interferences disrupt different activities for you, compared to a friend.
I’m thinking of the bit in “Surely you’re joking” where Feynman finds that he can’t talk and maintain a mental counter at the same time, while a friend of his can—because his friend’s mental counter is visual.
Neat. I can do it both ways… actually, I can name at least four different ways of counting:
“Raw” counting, without any sensory component; really just a sense of magnitude. Seems to be a floating-point, with a really small number of bits; I usually lose track of the exact number by, oh, six.
Verbally. Interferes with talking, as you’d expect.
Visually, using actual 2/3D models of whatever I’m counting. No interference, but a strict upper limit, and interferes with seeing—well, usually the other way around. The upper limit still seems to be five-six picture elements, but I can arrange them in various ways to count higher; binary, for starters, but also geometrically or.. various ways.
Visually, using pictures of decimal numbers. That interferes with speaking when updating the number, but otherwise sticks around without any active maintenance, at least so long as I have my eyes closed. I’m still limited to five-six digits, though… either decimal or hexadecimal works. I could probably figure out a more efficient encoding if I worked at it.
I, for one, actually hear the voice. It’s quite clear. Not loud like an actual voice but a “so loud I can’t hear myself think” moment has never literally happened to me since the voice seems more like its on its own track, parallel to my actual hearing. I would never get it confused with actual sounds, though I can’t really separate the hearing it to the making it to be sure of that.
That’s interesting! Because I have definitely had “so loud I can’t hear myself think” moments (even though I don’t literally hear thoughts) - just two days ago, I had to ask somebody to stop talking for a while so that I could focus.
Being distracted is one thing—I mean literally not being able to hear my thoughts in the manner that I might not be able to hear what you said if a jet was taking off nearby. This was to emphasize that even though I perceive them as sounds there is ‘something’ different about them than sounds-from-ears that seems to prevent them from audibly mingling. Loud noises can still make me lose track of what I was thinking and break focus.
Hmm. Now that I think of it, I’m not sure to what extent it was just distraction and to what extent a literal inability to hear my thoughts. Could’ve been exclusively one, or parts of both.
I added more detail in a sibling post, but it can’t be that universal; I practically never do that at all, basically only for thoughts that are destined to actually be spoken. (Or written, etc.)
Actually, I believe I used to do so most of the time (..about twenty years ago, before the age of ten), but then made a concerted effort to stop doing so on the basis that pretending to speak aloud takes more time. Those memories may be inaccurate, though.
It very universal but some people shut down their awareness of the process. It’s like people who don’t say they don’t dream. They just don’t remember it. Most people can’t perceive their own heartbeat. It can take some effort to build awareness.
What’s your internal reaction when someone insults yourself?
You’re claiming that you understand his thought better than he does. That is a severe accusation and is not epistemologically justified. Also, I can’t recall off the top of my head any time somebody insulted me, I think my reaction would depend on the context, but I don’t see why it will involve imagined words.
How do you know that there’s no epistemological justification?
So, how do I know? Empirical experience at NLP seminars. At the beginning plenty of people say that they don’t have an internal dialoge, that they can’t view mental images or that they can’t perceive emotions within their own body.
It’s something that usually get’s fixed in a short amount of time.
Around two month ago I was chatting with a girl who had two voices in her head. One that did big picture thinking and another that did analytic thinking. She herself wasn’t consciously aware that one of the voices came from the left and the other from the right.
After I told her which voice came from which direction, she checked and I was right. I can’t diagnose what Baughn does with internal dialog in the same depth through online conversation but there nothing that stops me from putting forth generally observations about people who believe that they have no internal dialog until they were taught to perceive it.
Yes, you don’t see imagined words. That’s kind of the point of words. You either hear them or don’t hear them. If you try to see them you will fail. If you try to perceive your internal dialog that way you won’t see any internal dialog.
But why did I pick that example? It’s emotional. Being insulted frequently get’s people to reflect on themselves and the other person. They might ask themselves: “Why did he do that?” or answer to themselves “No, he has no basis for making that claim.” In addition judgement is usually done via words.
I’m however not sure whether I can build up enough awareness in Baughn via text based online conversation that he can pick up his mental dialog.
If you don’t have strong internal dialog it doesn’t surprise me that you aren’t good at recalling a type of event that usually goes with strong internal dialog.
Hm~
Those are interesting claims, but I think you misunderstood a little. I do have an internal monologue, sometimes; I just don’t bother to use it, a lot of the time. It depends on circumstances.
You moved in the span of half a year from: “I’m pretty sure I don’t have a internal monologue, I don’t know what the term is supposed to mean.” to “I do have an internal monologue, sometimes”.
That’s basically my point. With a bit of direction there something that you could recognize there to be an internal monologue in your mind.
Of course once you recognize it, you aren’t in the state anymore where you would say: “I’m pretty sure I don’t have a internal monologue.” That’s typical for those kind of issues.
I was basically right with my claim that “I’m pretty sure I don’t have a internal monologue.” is wrong, and did what it took to for you to recognize it. itaibn0 claimed that the claim was etymologically unsubstantiated. It was substantiated and turned out to be right.
Actually, I would have made the same claim half a year ago. The only difference is that I have a different model of what the words “internal monologue” mean—that, and I’ve done some extra modelling and introspection for a novel.
Yes, now you have a mental model that allows you to believe “I do have an internal monologue, sometimes” back then you didn’t. What I did write was intended to create that model in your mind.
To me it seems like it worked. It’s also typical that people backport their mental models into the past when they remember what happened in the past.
How does it get fixed?
First different people use different system with underlying strength. Some people like Tesla can visualize a chair and the chair they visualize get’s perceived by them the same way as a real chair. You don’t get someone who doesn’t think he can visualize pictures to that level of visualization ability by doing a few tricks.
In general you do something that triggers a reaction in someone. You observe the person and when she has the image or has the dialog you stop and tell the person to focus their attention on it. There are cases where that’s enough.
There are also cases where a person has a real reason why they repress a certain way of perception. A person with a strong emotional trauma might have completely stopped relating to emotions within their body to escape the emotional pain. Then it’s necessary for the person to become into a state where they are resourceful enough to face the pain so that they can process it.
A third layer would consist of different suggestion that it’s possible to perceive something new. Both at a conscious level and on a deep metaphoric level.
I feel like I’m floating. Adrenaline rush, the same feeling I used to get when fights were imminent as a kid.
How do you know how you want to respond to the insult? What mental strategy did you use the last time you were insulted?
I just do what I feel like. And my feelings are generally in line with my previous experiences with the other person. If I feel like they’re a reasonable person and generally nice then I feel like giving them the benefit of the doubt, if I feel like they’re a total toss-pot then I’m liable to fire back at them. There’s so much cached thought that’s felt rather than verbalised at that point that it’s pretty much a reaction.