I’m going to be starting college in the fall, so that obviously gives me a new environment with lots of girls...
The more incentive to develop the skills before the college. You are right that if you approach ten girls every night in the same environment, sooner or later someone will notice. I would suggest training your skills somewhere else, and use the interaction in college only to maintain the level you already have. -- For example if you are uncomfortable making eye contact, train it somewhere else, but when you become comfortable with it, do it every day at the college to strenghten the habit. -- If you change your college behavior slowly and without obvious effort, people won’t notice. It will be just “growing up”.
Not to mention that I can’t just magically make myself not feel shame.
I recommend two powerful branches of modern magic, called “reductionism” and “conditioning”. The first one can literally crush mountains to sand, the second one can be used by a wizard to transform themselves. The most successful school of these branches is CBT.
What exactly makes you feel shame? What words do you hear or what video do you see in your mind when you consider talking to an attractive girl? First step, write it down, in as much detail as you can (not publicly). For example: “If I say ‘hello’ to a girl, she will run away screaming / start laughing at me / coldly ignore me / call the cops.” (Merely writing it down helps to dispell the magic, because you notice how silly it is.) Second step, try to trace when and how did this idea get into your mind, and what evidence do you have about its literal truth. Was it said or suggested to you by someone when you were 10 years old? What is the probability that the person (a) had a correct model of the world, (b) had a motivation at given moment to give you a literally correct information, and (c) you understood and remembered it perfectly? Or it is something that happened to you in the past? Are there some specific things about (a) you, (b) the person you are going to interact with, (c) the environment, that have changed? Third step, make a statistics: Take a notebook, make a specific prediction, do the experiment, note the results. Out of 10 approaches, what happened how often?
If something is difficult, try splitting it into smaller pieces, and train it piece by piece. Asking “what time is it now?” is easier and shorter than having a conversation. Making eye contact and smiling for half a second is even easier. But perhaps smiling at a photograph or an imaginary person could be even easier. Even the smile, or more precisely the causal chain in your brain that naturally makes you smile, can be analyzed. Is there a pleasant thought that is likely to make you smile? (Imagine lying at the beach, observing the wide sky under the warm sun.) Try smiling alone, perhaps lying relaxed on your bed, until you feel pleasant doing it. Then smile at photographs, at real people not looking at you, at real people looking at you, starting with the people you know. (Note: If someone asks you why you smile, just say: “I just have a great day” and stop there.) For a successully completed task, reward yourself with an M&M.
Creepiness is a really hard concept to deal with. … PUA-y stuff saying “men being passionate and clear about their intentions is attractive” … poorly socially calibrated might do something creepy like writing someone in his class he’s talked to a few times a long Facebook message confessing his feelings for her
I think the essence of creepiness is the victim’s (real or perceived) inability to easily stop the interaction. The PUA attitude is like: “girl, if you want, my bed is over there and I don’t have any mental problem about doing it like rabbits… but if you don’t want, I am perfectly okay with that, too; there are other girls who will be happy to get this offer, and meanwhile, we can talk, but we also don’t have to”. Of course not using those words; this is just the internal model of the world. Clear about: yes, I am a healthy human male. Clear about: you are given the opportunity, but the choice is yours.
On the other hand “confessing feelings” is probably kind of creepy at almost every context. It works only if the girl is at the given moment 100% sure she wants you (and you are so biased to overestimate this), or if you are a fictional Hollywood hero and her positive response is in the script. Rule of thumb: Don’t do it, except if the girl does it first, and even then don’t make it stronger than she did. Otherwise it can go like: “Oh, this guy needs me so much, but I am not completely sure about him… and maybe I will later decide I don’t want him… and maybe then he will do something creepy… so perhaps I should play it safe and get rid of him before he gets even more attached.” Not having an easy opportunity to leave, if you decide to, is also creepy. -- Also, if you make a social mistake, leaving a written proof makes it much worse.
There are some PUA techniques to reduce creepiness, for example by introducing an artificial limit like: “Hi—oh, I am so sorry I must leave within a minute to catch my train—but I just noticed you and really wanted to say hello.” Properly done, the girl now feels no pressure (unless something else is wrong). Of course, you should then leave as promised. (Advanced version: Or have a very credible excuse.) Also, you can send similar signals with your body language; don’t lean towards the girl, don’t even turn your body against her, only your head. She must feel free to leave; and if she does, you must accept it calmly, preferably with a smile. To keep your mind in the proper state, relax and congratulate yourself for starting the conversation. And eat an M&M. And remember that if she left without any obstacles, she is more likely to talk with you again, perhaps for a longer time.
Note: Feel free to punch me if I talk about dancing lessons too much, but it is a social activity where it is socially okay and even required to touch girls. ;) The idea is to become comfortable with non-zero contact. Actually, for really good ballroom dancing, rather intimate contact is required; but let the girl decide how much is okay for her. It will still be more than zero. To avoid creepiness, make it obvious you expect only one dance at a time from the girl. Then lead her back to her chair, smile, compliment her dancing, and say: thank you. (Rule of thumb: Don’t make her send you away or escape from you; leave first.)
I am sure that there are socially acceptable ways to show a girl your attraction that would 80% of the time end up with you not being given the creepy label, regardless of whether or not she reciprocates.
She does something interesting. You approach her (don’t go directly to her, just around her), make eye contact, smile, compliment her on what she did, and leave immediately (if possible, don’t go back, continue in approximately the same direction). Repeat 20 times (with different girls, in different situations).
“creepy” is also one of the most common critiques people give of PUA
Selection bias: If a PUA does something wrong, people think: “This was a creepy PUA”. If a PUA does something right, people think: “This was a charming young man.” Attribution error: If you attend a seminar, then smile at a strange girl and say hello, your friends will think: “He never did this before, but after the seminar he keeps smiling at strange girls and saying hello, that’s creepy.” Everyone else will think: “He is a nice and happy guy.” Confirmation bias: If someone has already decided that you are creepy, anything you do will seem creepy to them. -- Therefore, if you learn and use PUA stuff, don’t say it to people around you, because then you will get feedback about their models of PUA, not about what you do. (In the worst case they could start punishing all your social behavior. Like, you would do something nice and social that you would have done before too, and they would say: please stop doing this PUA stuff all the time, it’s creepy.)
A thought experiment: Imagine than in another universe I would write here on LW exactly the same information and advice, but I would start with the following disclaimer: -- “Please don’t ever do PUA. PUA is creepy and it is for losers. It is evil and should be illegal. How about just naturally being yourself, being nice and polite and attractive? Why are guys so opposed to doing that? Are they afraid that they would lose their masculinity? No, that is a patriachal nonsense. Actually, here is some advice from my feminist friends about how to become a real man: …”—and then I would follow with all the PUA advice, just being very careful not to ever mention “PUA” or any PUA slang (e.g. “alpha” and “beta”), and to always frame it like: This is how you become a good man (connotationally: good doggie) and make women happier (because that is the only thing that truly matters). Would such version be more socially acceptable? Oh, it certainly would; it would show everyone that I am a good Blue, not an evil Green. So why don’t I do it? Well, I am stubborn; and I consider it intellectually dishonest to use someone’s knowledge without giving them the proper credit. I am not saying PUAs invented this all, but they certainly widely popularized it. They are the ones who tried to help the low-status male, before it became profitable. I have no problem with using other sources of information on the same topic, as long as the information is useful; I just didn’t find any.
Maybe we can charitably extend your definition to include not taking no for an answer, since people feel social pressure to not cut off a conversation halfway through.
Yes, ‘not taking “no” for an answer’ is very creepy!
Maybe we can charitably extend your definition to include not taking no for an answer, since people feel social pressure to not cut off a conversation halfway through.
Note also that people vary a lot in their propensity to say no in spite of pressure to the contrary, so if you’re someone who hardly ever has much trouble with that and you generalize from one example...
(I’ve recently seen lots of anecdotal evidence that ‘if she hasn’t withdrawn from the interaction, she must be enjoying it’ isn’t a viable heuristic for certain people.)
If there is a web discussion about something, people naturally extend the meaning of something. Let’s take LW for an obvious example: It started with epistemic rationality, and expanded even to rational toothpaste.
So by the same mechanism, I would expect that if you make a web community discussing “creepiness”, the scope will naturally grow. -- The example you linked doesn’t seem creepy to me, assuming it was on a dating website. (A context could make it creepy: for example if the same man keeps sending this message repeatedly to the same woman.)
You know, haters gonna hate. Try avoiding the obvious haters, and don’t leave written records that could fall in wrong hands.
I guess a proper protocol for dating a schoolmate is to invite them somewhere outside of the school (some interesting place, or for a walk). In school, just be friendly. This way you leave an obvious exit. Also, the girl may appreciate your discretion.
How does talking to a girl for only one minute help you?
If you are nervous about approaching strange girls, the time limit also reduces your stress. Gradually you will start feeling relaxed while doing it. That is the time to approach someone else without using the time limit.
Is this for practice or for results? Am I doing this on strangers or on people I know?
Always start with easy and progress to more difficult. Start complimenting the people you know, and progress to strangers. The more you do it, the more “natural” it will feel to you. (I use scare quotes around “natural”, because “natural” simply means: learned and practiced long time ago, and “not natural” means: learned yesterday, have not practice yet. You become “natural” by practice, not by being born with the ability.) At first just practice, but with enough experience you will learn the scale of reactions, when people are just polite and when they are really happy… and then at some moment, when you get a happy reaction, you can ask whether it is okay to talk.
Sorry, the advice ends here—this is not a PUA forum, and some people don’t like this topic. I hope I made you interested, and perhaps provided a good starting map. Many specific answers and new ideas are in the books. As usual, use your brain. If something feels morally wrong or dangerous, don’t do it. But if something merely feels uncomfortable, expand your comfort zone; do it slowly, but do it. You can’t learn social skills by discussing them online. You have to practice. With practice, it will become easier. Don’t mention “PUA” to people, and feel free to ignore any bullshit. Just be aware that a lot of advice you get from traditional sources is also bullshit. Explore the territory, don’t just copy other people’s maps. Do it sooner rather than later, because then you will have more time to enjoy the gains.
I guess a proper protocol for dating a schoolmate is to invite them somewhere outside of the school (some interesting place, or for a walk). In school, just be friendly. This way you leave an obvious exit. Also, the girl may appreciate your discretion.
This actually makes a lot of sense. “Only show attraction to girls outside of school/work, so that they are aware that you compartmentalize your life in such a way that they will not have to deal with the topic of romance with you at school/work if they are not inclined to do so.” This is why at a school dance it’s okay to go and rub your crotch on the butt of a girl you treat completely non-sexually during the day.
EDIT: And now the concept of sexual harassment in the workplace makes a lot more sense.
Sorry, the advice ends here—this is not a PUA forum, and some people don’t like this topic.
That’s fine, I understand that you probably have better things to do. Thank you for the advice/discussion, and good luck in your future endeavors. :)
“Only show attraction to girls outside of school/work, so that they are aware that you compartmentalize your life in such a way that they will not have to deal with the topic of romance with you at school/work if they are not inclined to do so.”
That’s pretty much what I do instinctively, except that the compartments are more gerrymandered than that (and they’re not much clearer to my System 2 than (say) grammatical rules), and they depend on who the woman is (and, to a lesser extent, on what we’re talking about) but not much on where we are (e.g., with some people I’ll do the hover hand thing in pictures, with others I’m perfectly comfortable putting a hand on their thigh during class).
(This might be part of a same pattern as Feynman’s observation that it’s common for European physicists to talk about their work in bars but rare for American physicists.)
The example you linked doesn’t seem creepy to me, assuming it was on a dating website. (A context could make it creepy: for example if the same man keeps sending this message repeatedly to the same woman.)
Actually, I think the lack of context makes it creepier.
Being that explicit so early in a conversation is usually considered impolite. (There’s no need to explicitly mention the bedroom—they’re on a dating site, she knows you mean that even if you just say you want to hang out.) Therefore, it demonstrates a lack of familiarity with politeness norms, and possibly with social interactions in general. In more usual contexts, it would instead demonstrate that you can afford flouting politeness rules without much of a status hit, but when you’re talking to someone who knows basically nothing about you other than what you’re communicating at the moment (for all she knows, you could be a sexual predator, a dork who basically never talks to women in meatspace, or even an uFAI), countersignalling is a bad idea.
Also, it pattern-matches a kind of guy who gets very resentful, sometimes in a scary way, when he doesn’t get his way. (And for some reason they seem to always be awful at writing—“your beautiful”, “knew to the area”...)
The more incentive to develop the skills before the college. You are right that if you approach ten girls every night in the same environment, sooner or later someone will notice. I would suggest training your skills somewhere else, and use the interaction in college only to maintain the level you already have. -- For example if you are uncomfortable making eye contact, train it somewhere else, but when you become comfortable with it, do it every day at the college to strenghten the habit. -- If you change your college behavior slowly and without obvious effort, people won’t notice. It will be just “growing up”.
I recommend two powerful branches of modern magic, called “reductionism” and “conditioning”. The first one can literally crush mountains to sand, the second one can be used by a wizard to transform themselves. The most successful school of these branches is CBT.
What exactly makes you feel shame? What words do you hear or what video do you see in your mind when you consider talking to an attractive girl? First step, write it down, in as much detail as you can (not publicly). For example: “If I say ‘hello’ to a girl, she will run away screaming / start laughing at me / coldly ignore me / call the cops.” (Merely writing it down helps to dispell the magic, because you notice how silly it is.) Second step, try to trace when and how did this idea get into your mind, and what evidence do you have about its literal truth. Was it said or suggested to you by someone when you were 10 years old? What is the probability that the person (a) had a correct model of the world, (b) had a motivation at given moment to give you a literally correct information, and (c) you understood and remembered it perfectly? Or it is something that happened to you in the past? Are there some specific things about (a) you, (b) the person you are going to interact with, (c) the environment, that have changed? Third step, make a statistics: Take a notebook, make a specific prediction, do the experiment, note the results. Out of 10 approaches, what happened how often?
If something is difficult, try splitting it into smaller pieces, and train it piece by piece. Asking “what time is it now?” is easier and shorter than having a conversation. Making eye contact and smiling for half a second is even easier. But perhaps smiling at a photograph or an imaginary person could be even easier. Even the smile, or more precisely the causal chain in your brain that naturally makes you smile, can be analyzed. Is there a pleasant thought that is likely to make you smile? (Imagine lying at the beach, observing the wide sky under the warm sun.) Try smiling alone, perhaps lying relaxed on your bed, until you feel pleasant doing it. Then smile at photographs, at real people not looking at you, at real people looking at you, starting with the people you know. (Note: If someone asks you why you smile, just say: “I just have a great day” and stop there.) For a successully completed task, reward yourself with an M&M.
I think the essence of creepiness is the victim’s (real or perceived) inability to easily stop the interaction. The PUA attitude is like: “girl, if you want, my bed is over there and I don’t have any mental problem about doing it like rabbits… but if you don’t want, I am perfectly okay with that, too; there are other girls who will be happy to get this offer, and meanwhile, we can talk, but we also don’t have to”. Of course not using those words; this is just the internal model of the world. Clear about: yes, I am a healthy human male. Clear about: you are given the opportunity, but the choice is yours.
On the other hand “confessing feelings” is probably kind of creepy at almost every context. It works only if the girl is at the given moment 100% sure she wants you (and you are so biased to overestimate this), or if you are a fictional Hollywood hero and her positive response is in the script. Rule of thumb: Don’t do it, except if the girl does it first, and even then don’t make it stronger than she did. Otherwise it can go like: “Oh, this guy needs me so much, but I am not completely sure about him… and maybe I will later decide I don’t want him… and maybe then he will do something creepy… so perhaps I should play it safe and get rid of him before he gets even more attached.” Not having an easy opportunity to leave, if you decide to, is also creepy. -- Also, if you make a social mistake, leaving a written proof makes it much worse.
There are some PUA techniques to reduce creepiness, for example by introducing an artificial limit like: “Hi—oh, I am so sorry I must leave within a minute to catch my train—but I just noticed you and really wanted to say hello.” Properly done, the girl now feels no pressure (unless something else is wrong). Of course, you should then leave as promised. (Advanced version: Or have a very credible excuse.) Also, you can send similar signals with your body language; don’t lean towards the girl, don’t even turn your body against her, only your head. She must feel free to leave; and if she does, you must accept it calmly, preferably with a smile. To keep your mind in the proper state, relax and congratulate yourself for starting the conversation. And eat an M&M. And remember that if she left without any obstacles, she is more likely to talk with you again, perhaps for a longer time.
Note: Feel free to punch me if I talk about dancing lessons too much, but it is a social activity where it is socially okay and even required to touch girls. ;) The idea is to become comfortable with non-zero contact. Actually, for really good ballroom dancing, rather intimate contact is required; but let the girl decide how much is okay for her. It will still be more than zero. To avoid creepiness, make it obvious you expect only one dance at a time from the girl. Then lead her back to her chair, smile, compliment her dancing, and say: thank you. (Rule of thumb: Don’t make her send you away or escape from you; leave first.)
She does something interesting. You approach her (don’t go directly to her, just around her), make eye contact, smile, compliment her on what she did, and leave immediately (if possible, don’t go back, continue in approximately the same direction). Repeat 20 times (with different girls, in different situations).
Selection bias: If a PUA does something wrong, people think: “This was a creepy PUA”. If a PUA does something right, people think: “This was a charming young man.” Attribution error: If you attend a seminar, then smile at a strange girl and say hello, your friends will think: “He never did this before, but after the seminar he keeps smiling at strange girls and saying hello, that’s creepy.” Everyone else will think: “He is a nice and happy guy.” Confirmation bias: If someone has already decided that you are creepy, anything you do will seem creepy to them. -- Therefore, if you learn and use PUA stuff, don’t say it to people around you, because then you will get feedback about their models of PUA, not about what you do. (In the worst case they could start punishing all your social behavior. Like, you would do something nice and social that you would have done before too, and they would say: please stop doing this PUA stuff all the time, it’s creepy.)
A thought experiment: Imagine than in another universe I would write here on LW exactly the same information and advice, but I would start with the following disclaimer: -- “Please don’t ever do PUA. PUA is creepy and it is for losers. It is evil and should be illegal. How about just naturally being yourself, being nice and polite and attractive? Why are guys so opposed to doing that? Are they afraid that they would lose their masculinity? No, that is a patriachal nonsense. Actually, here is some advice from my feminist friends about how to become a real man: …”—and then I would follow with all the PUA advice, just being very careful not to ever mention “PUA” or any PUA slang (e.g. “alpha” and “beta”), and to always frame it like: This is how you become a good man (connotationally: good doggie) and make women happier (because that is the only thing that truly matters). Would such version be more socially acceptable? Oh, it certainly would; it would show everyone that I am a good Blue, not an evil Green. So why don’t I do it? Well, I am stubborn; and I consider it intellectually dishonest to use someone’s knowledge without giving them the proper credit. I am not saying PUAs invented this all, but they certainly widely popularized it. They are the ones who tried to help the low-status male, before it became profitable. I have no problem with using other sources of information on the same topic, as long as the information is useful; I just didn’t find any.
[deleted]
Yes, ‘not taking “no” for an answer’ is very creepy!
Note also that people vary a lot in their propensity to say no in spite of pressure to the contrary, so if you’re someone who hardly ever has much trouble with that and you generalize from one example...
(I’ve recently seen lots of anecdotal evidence that ‘if she hasn’t withdrawn from the interaction, she must be enjoying it’ isn’t a viable heuristic for certain people.)
If there is a web discussion about something, people naturally extend the meaning of something. Let’s take LW for an obvious example: It started with epistemic rationality, and expanded even to rational toothpaste.
So by the same mechanism, I would expect that if you make a web community discussing “creepiness”, the scope will naturally grow. -- The example you linked doesn’t seem creepy to me, assuming it was on a dating website. (A context could make it creepy: for example if the same man keeps sending this message repeatedly to the same woman.)
You know, haters gonna hate. Try avoiding the obvious haters, and don’t leave written records that could fall in wrong hands.
I guess a proper protocol for dating a schoolmate is to invite them somewhere outside of the school (some interesting place, or for a walk). In school, just be friendly. This way you leave an obvious exit. Also, the girl may appreciate your discretion.
If you are nervous about approaching strange girls, the time limit also reduces your stress. Gradually you will start feeling relaxed while doing it. That is the time to approach someone else without using the time limit.
Always start with easy and progress to more difficult. Start complimenting the people you know, and progress to strangers. The more you do it, the more “natural” it will feel to you. (I use scare quotes around “natural”, because “natural” simply means: learned and practiced long time ago, and “not natural” means: learned yesterday, have not practice yet. You become “natural” by practice, not by being born with the ability.) At first just practice, but with enough experience you will learn the scale of reactions, when people are just polite and when they are really happy… and then at some moment, when you get a happy reaction, you can ask whether it is okay to talk.
Sorry, the advice ends here—this is not a PUA forum, and some people don’t like this topic. I hope I made you interested, and perhaps provided a good starting map. Many specific answers and new ideas are in the books. As usual, use your brain. If something feels morally wrong or dangerous, don’t do it. But if something merely feels uncomfortable, expand your comfort zone; do it slowly, but do it. You can’t learn social skills by discussing them online. You have to practice. With practice, it will become easier. Don’t mention “PUA” to people, and feel free to ignore any bullshit. Just be aware that a lot of advice you get from traditional sources is also bullshit. Explore the territory, don’t just copy other people’s maps. Do it sooner rather than later, because then you will have more time to enjoy the gains.
This actually makes a lot of sense. “Only show attraction to girls outside of school/work, so that they are aware that you compartmentalize your life in such a way that they will not have to deal with the topic of romance with you at school/work if they are not inclined to do so.” This is why at a school dance it’s okay to go and rub your crotch on the butt of a girl you treat completely non-sexually during the day.
EDIT: And now the concept of sexual harassment in the workplace makes a lot more sense.
That’s fine, I understand that you probably have better things to do. Thank you for the advice/discussion, and good luck in your future endeavors. :)
That’s pretty much what I do instinctively, except that the compartments are more gerrymandered than that (and they’re not much clearer to my System 2 than (say) grammatical rules), and they depend on who the woman is (and, to a lesser extent, on what we’re talking about) but not much on where we are (e.g., with some people I’ll do the hover hand thing in pictures, with others I’m perfectly comfortable putting a hand on their thigh during class).
(This might be part of a same pattern as Feynman’s observation that it’s common for European physicists to talk about their work in bars but rare for American physicists.)
Actually, I think the lack of context makes it creepier.
Being that explicit so early in a conversation is usually considered impolite. (There’s no need to explicitly mention the bedroom—they’re on a dating site, she knows you mean that even if you just say you want to hang out.) Therefore, it demonstrates a lack of familiarity with politeness norms, and possibly with social interactions in general. In more usual contexts, it would instead demonstrate that you can afford flouting politeness rules without much of a status hit, but when you’re talking to someone who knows basically nothing about you other than what you’re communicating at the moment (for all she knows, you could be a sexual predator, a dork who basically never talks to women in meatspace, or even an uFAI), countersignalling is a bad idea.
Also, it pattern-matches a kind of guy who gets very resentful, sometimes in a scary way, when he doesn’t get his way. (And for some reason they seem to always be awful at writing—“your beautiful”, “knew to the area”...)