What harm is done by bringing on an astrologer? At worst it fail to amuse.
But it’s obvious you’re not talking about the diavlog’s impact on you… you’re concerned with the poor, unwashed masses who might actually be left to form their own opinions from the available information. Well, that’s very nice of you, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that it’s safe to expose people to views which might be labeled as “crackpottery” by some.
High-status serious people want to associate with high-status others. Allowing crackpots on the same venue dramatically decreases its attractiveness for quality participants.
You can’t really give an elaborate justification for why in this particular case it’s OK, because signals are shallow.
The “unwashed masses”, as you call them, are already getting plenty of exposition to crackpottery, much more than they get to real science, so that a few crackpots on BHTV are barely a drop in the ocean. That’s not what concerns me, no.
What concerns me is that BHTV has a reputation as a respectable website thanks to the participation of respectable academics and experts. It’s reasonable to assume that such a respectable website wouldn’t invite crackpots to promote their brand of crackpottery; in fact, that’s an assumption I made myself until I read Sean’s and Carl’s posts. Inviting crackpots therefore gives the impression that these people should be taken seriously, even if we think they’re wrong.
In any event, your own motives are suspect, to say the least. Characterizing creationist nuts as “people whom [Sean and Carl] don’t like”, as if creationism was merely a distasteful political opinion, or something, makes you sound like a crackpot yourself, or worse, a postmodernist.
So BHTV can’t both enjoy the participation of respectable academics and also host the occasional crackpot? There exists no such universe where the two could possibly coincide? Is there some implicit assumption here that there’s a fixed amount of BHTV episodes, each of which will feature either crackpots or respectable academics? Even if this were so, wouldn’t the reasonable response be to skip over the crackpots rather than avoiding the entire medium? The only justifiable rationale I can see for skipping over BHTV because of this is if you just watched diavlogs at random and having crackpots degraded the signal:noise ratio of the site. But I doubt that you, I, Sean, Carl, or your average Bloggingheads viewer navigates the site in this manner.
Even though I profoundly degree with Behe’s epistemology (and theology), which should go without saying in these parts, I found the debate interesting (I think irreducible complexity is a neat topic), certainly moreso than I’ve enjoyed other diavlogs. Can anyone honestly say that Behe’s presence is less valuable than any other podcast on the website? I doubt it, and thus it strikes me as disingenuous that the unique response his presence generates can be explained away purely through outrage at the notion that somewhere, someone’s time may be wasted.
And I didn’t include the “people whom others don’t like” line as a defense of creationism per se, but as a broader point about silencing views found in contempt. To rip off Will Wilkinson, I’d probably venture to assert that unrepentant Marxists are just as high on the crackpottery scale as Creationists, but I highly doubt we’d see people abandon the site in protest in BHTV hosted some of them. “Respectability” in this context is a tricky term to use, since “respectability” tends to be conferred by social fashions just as much as actual correspondence to whatever virtues we’ve deemed to be worthy of respect. On a more base level, I suspect that many participants in this community have been dismissed as “crackpots” in some context or other before, and are skeptical of the neutrality and intellectual virtues of those who tend to yield the power of the censor. This isn’t a philosophical defense of subjectivism or postmodernism, but an institutional defense of the rough reasons why we don’t just go ahead and burn Behe at the stake.
Should BHTV invite Perez Hilton to debate the fearsome Man Bat? Michael Behe is as credible an author as Pamela Anderson, although not quite as illuminating. I used to think that the worst kind of ignorance was when you knew you were wrong and refused to accept it. Now I think the worst kind is when you know you’re capable of knowing when you’re wrong but refuse to let yourself. Michael Behe wants to be ignorant of his own ignorance. Let him do so in the peace and quiet of his own sad little world.
You’re shifting the goalposts some. I’m not defending the original decision to invite Behe. I’m questioning the notion that inviting Behe is such an egregious offense against BHTV’s “respectability” that it should be boycotted. I wouldn’t boycott BHTV if 90% of the diavlogs were replaced by midget porn, if it meant that I would get the occasional episode of Free Will.
I think Behe’s critics should just admit that what’s really motivating the reaction is the notion that Creationists not only should not be given forums to speak, but those who do grant Creationists forums to speak should be actively identified and boycotted in a way which is reserved for an arguably arbitrarily-defined set of social undesirables. This isn’t an indefensible position, but people have to admit to holding this belief (or some similar belief which is constructed in a more-charitable manner) before a meaningful debate can be enjoined.
[Edit]
Reading over the comments section of the CV posts, it looks like a lot of people are quick to point to Megan McArdle as the political crackpot equivalent of Behe. Should her presence be boycotted too as detrimental to the site? Where should the line be drawn? Where do you actually think the line would be drawn, if not along questionable ideological lines? Why have a line at all?
I think Behe’s critics should just admit that what’s really motivating the reaction is the notion that Creationists not only should not be given forums to speak, but those who do grant Creationists forums to speak should be actively identified and boycotted in a way which is reserved for an arguably arbitrarily-defined set of social undesirables.
What critic will not admit that? It’s hardly a fringe opinion in the scientific community that Creationists should not be given forums to speak on the thoroughly unscientific topic of Creationism, and that those who do so and call it science are being absurdly and unnecessarily tolerant. Creationism has never been more or less than an attack on science. It’s extremely toxic, and while I would never try to “silence” anyone, I don’t think it deserves more publicity. I grew up being taught that dreck in a fundamentalist Christian school and I’m more familiar with Behe than I’d care to be. Frankly, he’s an idiot, and his life purpose seems to be toward making more idiots. He doesn’t need anyone’s help.
As for McArdle, I don’t really care. Politics is not a hard science, and while she’s something of a crackpot, she’s not that way because somebody proved her map doesn’t follow the territory. It’s the difference between someone who thinks the earth is flat and someone who thinks it’s run by the Illuminati. The former is just wrong, the latter is just crazy. I don’t mind crazy, because crazy isn’t nearly as dangerous as wrong.
What I objected to about the creationists was that they were not worthy opponents with whom I disagree; they’re just crackpots. Go to a biology conference, read a biology journal, spend time in a biology department; nobody is arguing about the possibility that an ill-specified supernatural “designer” is interfering at whim with the course of evolution. It’s not a serious idea. It may be out there in the public sphere as an idea that garners attention—but, as we all know, that holds true for all sorts of non-serious ideas.
What harm is done by bringing on an astrologer? At worst it fail to amuse.
But it’s obvious you’re not talking about the diavlog’s impact on you… you’re concerned with the poor, unwashed masses who might actually be left to form their own opinions from the available information. Well, that’s very nice of you, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that it’s safe to expose people to views which might be labeled as “crackpottery” by some.
High-status serious people want to associate with high-status others. Allowing crackpots on the same venue dramatically decreases its attractiveness for quality participants.
You can’t really give an elaborate justification for why in this particular case it’s OK, because signals are shallow.
The “unwashed masses”, as you call them, are already getting plenty of exposition to crackpottery, much more than they get to real science, so that a few crackpots on BHTV are barely a drop in the ocean. That’s not what concerns me, no.
What concerns me is that BHTV has a reputation as a respectable website thanks to the participation of respectable academics and experts. It’s reasonable to assume that such a respectable website wouldn’t invite crackpots to promote their brand of crackpottery; in fact, that’s an assumption I made myself until I read Sean’s and Carl’s posts. Inviting crackpots therefore gives the impression that these people should be taken seriously, even if we think they’re wrong.
In any event, your own motives are suspect, to say the least. Characterizing creationist nuts as “people whom [Sean and Carl] don’t like”, as if creationism was merely a distasteful political opinion, or something, makes you sound like a crackpot yourself, or worse, a postmodernist.
So BHTV can’t both enjoy the participation of respectable academics and also host the occasional crackpot? There exists no such universe where the two could possibly coincide? Is there some implicit assumption here that there’s a fixed amount of BHTV episodes, each of which will feature either crackpots or respectable academics? Even if this were so, wouldn’t the reasonable response be to skip over the crackpots rather than avoiding the entire medium? The only justifiable rationale I can see for skipping over BHTV because of this is if you just watched diavlogs at random and having crackpots degraded the signal:noise ratio of the site. But I doubt that you, I, Sean, Carl, or your average Bloggingheads viewer navigates the site in this manner.
Even though I profoundly degree with Behe’s epistemology (and theology), which should go without saying in these parts, I found the debate interesting (I think irreducible complexity is a neat topic), certainly moreso than I’ve enjoyed other diavlogs. Can anyone honestly say that Behe’s presence is less valuable than any other podcast on the website? I doubt it, and thus it strikes me as disingenuous that the unique response his presence generates can be explained away purely through outrage at the notion that somewhere, someone’s time may be wasted.
And I didn’t include the “people whom others don’t like” line as a defense of creationism per se, but as a broader point about silencing views found in contempt. To rip off Will Wilkinson, I’d probably venture to assert that unrepentant Marxists are just as high on the crackpottery scale as Creationists, but I highly doubt we’d see people abandon the site in protest in BHTV hosted some of them. “Respectability” in this context is a tricky term to use, since “respectability” tends to be conferred by social fashions just as much as actual correspondence to whatever virtues we’ve deemed to be worthy of respect. On a more base level, I suspect that many participants in this community have been dismissed as “crackpots” in some context or other before, and are skeptical of the neutrality and intellectual virtues of those who tend to yield the power of the censor. This isn’t a philosophical defense of subjectivism or postmodernism, but an institutional defense of the rough reasons why we don’t just go ahead and burn Behe at the stake.
Should BHTV invite Perez Hilton to debate the fearsome Man Bat? Michael Behe is as credible an author as Pamela Anderson, although not quite as illuminating. I used to think that the worst kind of ignorance was when you knew you were wrong and refused to accept it. Now I think the worst kind is when you know you’re capable of knowing when you’re wrong but refuse to let yourself. Michael Behe wants to be ignorant of his own ignorance. Let him do so in the peace and quiet of his own sad little world.
You’re shifting the goalposts some. I’m not defending the original decision to invite Behe. I’m questioning the notion that inviting Behe is such an egregious offense against BHTV’s “respectability” that it should be boycotted. I wouldn’t boycott BHTV if 90% of the diavlogs were replaced by midget porn, if it meant that I would get the occasional episode of Free Will.
I think Behe’s critics should just admit that what’s really motivating the reaction is the notion that Creationists not only should not be given forums to speak, but those who do grant Creationists forums to speak should be actively identified and boycotted in a way which is reserved for an arguably arbitrarily-defined set of social undesirables. This isn’t an indefensible position, but people have to admit to holding this belief (or some similar belief which is constructed in a more-charitable manner) before a meaningful debate can be enjoined.
[Edit]
Reading over the comments section of the CV posts, it looks like a lot of people are quick to point to Megan McArdle as the political crackpot equivalent of Behe. Should her presence be boycotted too as detrimental to the site? Where should the line be drawn? Where do you actually think the line would be drawn, if not along questionable ideological lines? Why have a line at all?
What critic will not admit that? It’s hardly a fringe opinion in the scientific community that Creationists should not be given forums to speak on the thoroughly unscientific topic of Creationism, and that those who do so and call it science are being absurdly and unnecessarily tolerant. Creationism has never been more or less than an attack on science. It’s extremely toxic, and while I would never try to “silence” anyone, I don’t think it deserves more publicity. I grew up being taught that dreck in a fundamentalist Christian school and I’m more familiar with Behe than I’d care to be. Frankly, he’s an idiot, and his life purpose seems to be toward making more idiots. He doesn’t need anyone’s help.
As for McArdle, I don’t really care. Politics is not a hard science, and while she’s something of a crackpot, she’s not that way because somebody proved her map doesn’t follow the territory. It’s the difference between someone who thinks the earth is flat and someone who thinks it’s run by the Illuminati. The former is just wrong, the latter is just crazy. I don’t mind crazy, because crazy isn’t nearly as dangerous as wrong.
I haven’t seen BhTV endorse Creationism as science in any official capacity.
We been known to shoot us some subjectivists ’round these here parts, y’hear?
Sean Carrol concurs