Probably! My intuition is that your art as a rationalist is most in need when it’s hardest to exercise (HJPEV, I think, possibly also in the Sequences) and that you shouldn’t expect the world to give you the peace of mind to apply all your skill to a question. I can bench-press more weight with a proper safety bar and a spotter, but the real world doesn’t often offer safety bars and spotters so I press less weight, without the bar and spotter, and have a better estimate of my capabilities.
I disagree, I think it’s better to practice stuff without distractions, at least at first. So for example I wouldn’t prefer to have rational club meetings at a construction site; or to have people talking on their cell phones during the meeting.
I disagree, I think it’s better to practice stuff without distractions, at least at first. So for example I wouldn’t prefer to have rational club meetings at a construction site; or to have people talking on their cell phones during the meeting.
That’s unexpected. In this comparison of sex based distractions to construction sites jackhammers turn out to be analogous to breasts. I’d usually expect something different.
It’s not so much a matter of comparison as a matter of applying shokwave’s reasoning to other distractions.
He didn’t make the argument that simply having girls present is only a mild distraction. Instead, his argument is that one should accept distractions because they are present in normal life.
He didn’t make the argument that simply having girls present is only a mild distraction. Instead, his argument is that one should accept distractions because they are present in normal life.
I know, I agree with your argument. (Without supporting sex segregated lesswrong meetups as being a remotely practical idea!)
Ah. The male-only problem is pretty much a permanent decision—it’s a Hard Problem to attract females to an all-male group. So if you had to decide between never any distractions or always distractions… I would pick distractions. Otherwise I feel training caps out too early.
it’s a Hard Problem to attract females to an all-male group.
Who cares? It’s like this is a ballroom dancing society. Besides, as a practical matter what I envision is occasional meetings where girls are excluded. I think it would also make sense to have girl-only meetings.
I care. I certainly care about attracting half of humanity to rationality groups more than I’d care about attracting that subset of males that would be significantly distracted in mixed-gender company.
Besides, as a practical matter what I envision is occasional meetings where girls are excluded. I think it would also make sense to have girl-only meetings.
At the start of this discussion you used the term “men-only”. But in contrast you’re consistently using the term “girl” to refer to a member of the opposite gender.
The corresponding term to “men” and “men-only” is “women” and “women-only”. If you’d used “male”, the corresponding term would be “female”. Only if you had used “boy” or “guy” could the corresponding term be “girl”.
Take care of the connotations of your word choices, especially given the content of your suggestions.
I care. I certainly care about attracting half of humanity to rationality groups more than I’d care about attracting that subset of males that would be significantly distracted in mixed-gender company
If that’s your preference, then I can’t really argue with it. In my opinion, people are too concerned about attracting girls (or women if you prefer) to meetings.
In my opinion, people are too concerned about attracting girls (or women if you prefer) to meetings.
Downvoted for failure to either correct or justify the insulting connotations of your word-choices.
Why do you think that I should care more about attracting easily distracted boys to meetings, than I should care about attracting adult female rationalists to such? To make it more specific, why would I choose to discuss with you, if that meant I had to trade away the capacity to discuss with Alicorn or AnnaSalamon or NancyLebovitz?
Frankly I think that your attitude would be much more distracting to me than the presence of boobs would be.
Why do you think that I should care more about attracting easily distracted boys to meetings, than I should care about attracting adult female rationalists to such
It’s just a matter of who you prefer. Anyway, I’m not going to get sidetracked in a debate over “girl” versus “woman.” If you prefer to say “boy,” I can’t control your use of language.
Serious answer from someone who’s in the NYC group:
in practice, people do care. Both guys and girls are more likely to attend an event with a less skewed gender balance. Gender balance helps attendance at events where there’s socializing.
I don’t know what kinds of topics you’re imagining, but usually we don’t focus on topics that need to be single-gender. Our topics are things like clustering algorithms and prediction markets and TED talks. Nothing you really need to shoo the girls or boys out of the room for.
Not that I wouldn’t mind a Rationalist Hen Party sometime.
If there comes a time when there are enough rationalists who want to go to rationalist meetups that there can simultaniously be all male, all female and mixed sex groups then that would work and even have some benefits for some members of either sex who could plausibly be slightly more comfortable. I don’t care if you also include a group for otherkin.
Probably! My intuition is that your art as a rationalist is most in need when it’s hardest to exercise (HJPEV, I think, possibly also in the Sequences) and that you shouldn’t expect the world to give you the peace of mind to apply all your skill to a question. I can bench-press more weight with a proper safety bar and a spotter, but the real world doesn’t often offer safety bars and spotters so I press less weight, without the bar and spotter, and have a better estimate of my capabilities.
Would the same reasoning apply to noises, like jackhammering, people talking on their cell phones, etc?
Yes. Also to time-pressured situations like a question requiring an immediate answer, and emotionally charged situations.
I disagree, I think it’s better to practice stuff without distractions, at least at first. So for example I wouldn’t prefer to have rational club meetings at a construction site; or to have people talking on their cell phones during the meeting.
That’s unexpected. In this comparison of sex based distractions to construction sites jackhammers turn out to be analogous to breasts. I’d usually expect something different.
It’s not so much a matter of comparison as a matter of applying shokwave’s reasoning to other distractions.
He didn’t make the argument that simply having girls present is only a mild distraction. Instead, his argument is that one should accept distractions because they are present in normal life.
I know, I agree with your argument. (Without supporting sex segregated lesswrong meetups as being a remotely practical idea!)
Ah. The male-only problem is pretty much a permanent decision—it’s a Hard Problem to attract females to an all-male group. So if you had to decide between never any distractions or always distractions… I would pick distractions. Otherwise I feel training caps out too early.
Who cares? It’s like this is a ballroom dancing society. Besides, as a practical matter what I envision is occasional meetings where girls are excluded. I think it would also make sense to have girl-only meetings.
I care. I certainly care about attracting half of humanity to rationality groups more than I’d care about attracting that subset of males that would be significantly distracted in mixed-gender company.
At the start of this discussion you used the term “men-only”. But in contrast you’re consistently using the term “girl” to refer to a member of the opposite gender.
The corresponding term to “men” and “men-only” is “women” and “women-only”. If you’d used “male”, the corresponding term would be “female”. Only if you had used “boy” or “guy” could the corresponding term be “girl”.
Take care of the connotations of your word choices, especially given the content of your suggestions.
If that’s your preference, then I can’t really argue with it. In my opinion, people are too concerned about attracting girls (or women if you prefer) to meetings.
Downvoted for failure to either correct or justify the insulting connotations of your word-choices.
Why do you think that I should care more about attracting easily distracted boys to meetings, than I should care about attracting adult female rationalists to such? To make it more specific, why would I choose to discuss with you, if that meant I had to trade away the capacity to discuss with Alicorn or AnnaSalamon or NancyLebovitz?
Frankly I think that your attitude would be much more distracting to me than the presence of boobs would be.
I wish I could say the same about myself! That is admirable.
It’s just a matter of who you prefer. Anyway, I’m not going to get sidetracked in a debate over “girl” versus “woman.” If you prefer to say “boy,” I can’t control your use of language.
I do NOT so prefer it. My point is that words with bad connotations distract too, unless one fully intends said bad connotations.
Why did you engage in that type of distraction, a distraction you could easily remove without any negative repercussions I can think of?
Serious answer from someone who’s in the NYC group:
in practice, people do care. Both guys and girls are more likely to attend an event with a less skewed gender balance. Gender balance helps attendance at events where there’s socializing.
I don’t know what kinds of topics you’re imagining, but usually we don’t focus on topics that need to be single-gender. Our topics are things like clustering algorithms and prediction markets and TED talks. Nothing you really need to shoo the girls or boys out of the room for.
Not that I wouldn’t mind a Rationalist Hen Party sometime.
Is the goal simply to maximize attendance?
Not at all costs, but it is a goal.
Is the goal simply to maximize attendance?
If there comes a time when there are enough rationalists who want to go to rationalist meetups that there can simultaniously be all male, all female and mixed sex groups then that would work and even have some benefits for some members of either sex who could plausibly be slightly more comfortable. I don’t care if you also include a group for otherkin.