Have you changed your mind about frames or aesthetics?
I’m working on the next post in the “Keep Beliefs Cruxy and Frames Explicit” sequence. I’m not sure if it should be one or two posts. I’m also… noticing that honestly I’m not actually sure what actions to prescribe, and that this is more like a hypothesis and outlining of problems/desiderata.
Two plausible post titles
Doublecruxing on Frame
Keeping Frames Explicit
(I’m currently unsure whether aesthetics are best thought of as a type of frame, or a separate thing)
Honestly, I’m not sure whether I’ve successfully doublecruxed on a frame (i.e. reached convergence, or had both participants change their mind significantly, or come to any kind of shared). I’ve definitely singlecruxed on a frame (by which I mean, I have outlined the beliefs I’d have to change in order for my frame to change, and thought about hypothetical experiments you might run to check the beliefs)
So I think I’m switching to “think out loud about this for awhile before trying to write the final posts”. I’m curious if other people have perspectives on it.
Repeating the opening question: Have you changed your mind about frames or aesthetics? Have you engaged in major disagreements involving substantially different outlooks (ways of seeing, ways of thinking, or expectations of conversational context/goals) that went well?
Mostly a concerted effort on my part to find people who were good at these things, talk to them, and inhabit their positions with empathy. A lot of it was finding my own aesthetic analogies for what they were doing, then checking in with them to see ways the analogy didn’t work, and tweaking as needed.
I just came here to write a shortform on aesthetics, but I might as well write some random thoughts here and reach you in particular.
I believe that “Aesthetics Maketh the Man”. You can judge much about one’s character simply by what they find beautiful or ugly, and you can judge their values and morals simply by how solid their aesthetics are.
Perhaps it is indeed easier or better to quantify “aesthetics” as the array of morals, values, sense of beauty and empirical metis that compromise a living being’s personality. Things that are intrinsically part of how we interact with the world and society at large.
But to actually answer your question: I have given thought to aesthetics from a rational(?) POV that I hadn’t bothered with before, and no, I haven’t ever went into a “major disagreement” that went anywhere near “well”. People can be very irrational towards things their own aesthetic sense considers “ugly”, even (or specially) within the rationalist community.
Have you changed your mind about frames or aesthetics?
I’m working on the next post in the “Keep Beliefs Cruxy and Frames Explicit” sequence. I’m not sure if it should be one or two posts. I’m also… noticing that honestly I’m not actually sure what actions to prescribe, and that this is more like a hypothesis and outlining of problems/desiderata.
Two plausible post titles
Doublecruxing on Frame
Keeping Frames Explicit
(I’m currently unsure whether aesthetics are best thought of as a type of frame, or a separate thing)
Honestly, I’m not sure whether I’ve successfully doublecruxed on a frame (i.e. reached convergence, or had both participants change their mind significantly, or come to any kind of shared). I’ve definitely singlecruxed on a frame (by which I mean, I have outlined the beliefs I’d have to change in order for my frame to change, and thought about hypothetical experiments you might run to check the beliefs)
So I think I’m switching to “think out loud about this for awhile before trying to write the final posts”. I’m curious if other people have perspectives on it.
Repeating the opening question: Have you changed your mind about frames or aesthetics? Have you engaged in major disagreements involving substantially different outlooks (ways of seeing, ways of thinking, or expectations of conversational context/goals) that went well?
It used to be really hard for me to see things as ugly, but I was able to get that skill.
Prior to that, it used to be really hard for me to judge people, but I was also able to learn that skill.
What changed?
Mostly a concerted effort on my part to find people who were good at these things, talk to them, and inhabit their positions with empathy. A lot of it was finding my own aesthetic analogies for what they were doing, then checking in with them to see ways the analogy didn’t work, and tweaking as needed.
I just came here to write a shortform on aesthetics, but I might as well write some random thoughts here and reach you in particular.
I believe that “Aesthetics Maketh the Man”. You can judge much about one’s character simply by what they find beautiful or ugly, and you can judge their values and morals simply by how solid their aesthetics are.
Perhaps it is indeed easier or better to quantify “aesthetics” as the array of morals, values, sense of beauty and empirical metis that compromise a living being’s personality. Things that are intrinsically part of how we interact with the world and society at large.
But to actually answer your question: I have given thought to aesthetics from a rational(?) POV that I hadn’t bothered with before, and no, I haven’t ever went into a “major disagreement” that went anywhere near “well”. People can be very irrational towards things their own aesthetic sense considers “ugly”, even (or specially) within the rationalist community.