Those are my words; I am the one accused of “low moral standards”, for refusing to embrace goals set by the poster.
I was going to say something in defense of myself, but I actually have other, humbler but real responsibilities, and in a moment of distraction just now, I almost made a mistake that would have diabolical consequences for the people depending on me.
Life is hard, it can be the effort of a lifetime just to save one other person, and you shouldn’t make such accusations so casually.
No, some of your points are fine, and it is not you do not embrace my goals, but seems you try to prevent me from pursuing mine, by trying convince me or everyone to work on one thing alone, and to not do anything about war, rape nor murder. (though not related to morality yet). First it is not if you not embrace these goals personally, it is that you downplay them, and seem to argue everyone need to pursue a single goal to prevent AI risks, and I felt pushed even when I have already mentioned in this thread that both needs attention. You have mentioned addressing war, rape, and others are distractions.Even that is up to perspectives and though I disagree, I did not find it completely related to morality yet; it could be due to your lack of relatable experiences perhaps and your demographics, and I wrote a very long explanation explaining why that could happen with people’s experience, groups, and about power, and everything. (pasted those under this comment too). It is even fine to argue, that you think they are hard to solve, but you cannot say, that rape is related to something flourishing in humans. Language matters. I will stand by my words unless you acknowledge this claim/language is wrong/a mistake. Note that there is a difference between “low moral standard” (your language) and “if prevalent, the moral standard that does not lead to successful AI alignment” (my language). I have never accused your entire person/view personally, I am criticizing this view/claim. There are many replies on this thread that promote values that you are aligned with, including yourself and I didn’t have problem with, but this language is over the boundary, and I am not posting that quotation here casually.
=> What made your comment itself wrong, is that you seem to have the horrifying interpretation of what rape is. Rape is NOT erotic excitement, and that is very important, and that claim is outrageous. If you didn’t realize that before, and now you have, it does not hurt to admit that. Moral standards always improve as humans learn and gather more information. As I have linked in my link, it is about abuse and power. I have directly pointed this out multiple times in the message, you still repeatedly say it is a sexual instinct, which I have made clear it is not, nor it means nobody should tackle this, nor “dangerous distraction”.
If you mention emotion or something personal as opposed to arguing on the actual thing—I myself was also extremely bothered and frustrated by the comment on rape is erotic excitement, and could not take this off my mind and was talking to my friends about such claims, mostly identifying with women, and we were all very disappointed/horrified about such claims. Many many criminals use that to make excuses. Do you know how many people suffer, from that one sided “erotic excitement” even for someone there is anything sexual to it at all? There is nothing flourishing about this. Life is short, and I need to try my best to correct these (these kinds of comments are exactly reasons why I am worried, and why I try to raise awareness and educate) even if that means I suffer mentally from it. If you do not wish to be criticized, maybe be careful with how you present your arguments, and what is sensible to say, and what is not. If you are wrong/truly didn’t know/believed the wrong thing, then maybe update your belief.
I may have reached the point where I can crystallize my position into a few clear propositions:
First: I doubt the capacity of human beings using purely human methods like culture and the law, to 100% abolish any of these things. Reduce their frequency and their impact, yes.
Second: I believe the era in which the world is governed by “human beings using purely human methods” is rapidly coming to a close anyway, because of the rise of AI. Rather than the human condition being perfected in a triumph of good over evil, we are on track to be transformed and/or relegated to a minor role in the drama of being, in favor of new entities with quite different dispositions and concerns.
Third: I am not a sexologist or a criminologist, but I have serious doubts about an attempt to abolish rape, that wants to focus only on power and not on sexuality. I gather that this can be a good mindset for a recovering survivor, and any serious conversation on the topic of rape will necessarily touch on both power and sexuality anyway. But we’re talking abolition here, a condition that has never existed historically. As long as humanity contains beastly individuals who are simply indifferent to sympathy or seduction, and as long as some men and women drive enjoyment from playing out beastly scenarios, the ingredients will be there for rape to occur. That’s how it appears to me.
(Mentioned some of these in our chat, but allow me to be repetitive)
On first: I don’t think efforts to reduce rape or discrimination needs 100% abolition, but working towards that currently has huge return at this point of history. Education has snowball effect as well. Just because it is hard to achieve 100%, does not mean there should not be efforts, nor impossible at all. In fact, it is something that is rarely worked on alone; for example, one strategy might actually be to bring up education generally, or economic disparity, and during this process, teach people how to respect other people.
On second: We likely need good value system to align AI on, otherwise, the only alignment AI would know is probably not to overpower the most powerful human. But that does not seem to be the successful outcome of “aligned AI”. I think there are a few posts recently on this as well.
Third: I have seen many people having this confusion/mixed up: rape play/bdsm is consensual, and the definition of rape is non-consensual. Rape is purely about going against the person’s will. If you view it as murder it might be more comparable, but in this case, it is historically one group on to another group due to biological features and power differences that people cannot easily change on, though also a lot of men to men. In my view, it is worse than murder because it is extreme suffering, and that suffering will carry through the victims’ whole lives, and many may end with suicide anyways.
Otherwise, I am glad to see you thinking about these and open to discussion.
Those are my words; I am the one accused of “low moral standards”, for refusing to embrace goals set by the poster.
I was going to say something in defense of myself, but I actually have other, humbler but real responsibilities, and in a moment of distraction just now, I almost made a mistake that would have diabolical consequences for the people depending on me.
Life is hard, it can be the effort of a lifetime just to save one other person, and you shouldn’t make such accusations so casually.
No, some of your points are fine, and it is not you do not embrace my goals, but seems you try to prevent me from pursuing mine, by trying convince me or everyone to work on one thing alone, and to not do anything about war, rape nor murder. (though not related to morality yet). First it is not if you not embrace these goals personally, it is that you downplay them, and seem to argue everyone need to pursue a single goal to prevent AI risks, and I felt pushed even when I have already mentioned in this thread that both needs attention. You have mentioned addressing war, rape, and others are distractions.Even that is up to perspectives and though I disagree, I did not find it completely related to morality yet; it could be due to your lack of relatable experiences perhaps and your demographics, and I wrote a very long explanation explaining why that could happen with people’s experience, groups, and about power, and everything. (pasted those under this comment too). It is even fine to argue, that you think they are hard to solve, but you cannot say, that rape is related to something flourishing in humans. Language matters. I will stand by my words unless you acknowledge this claim/language is wrong/a mistake. Note that there is a difference between “low moral standard” (your language) and “if prevalent, the moral standard that does not lead to successful AI alignment” (my language). I have never accused your entire person/view personally, I am criticizing this view/claim. There are many replies on this thread that promote values that you are aligned with, including yourself and I didn’t have problem with, but this language is over the boundary, and I am not posting that quotation here casually.
=> What made your comment itself wrong, is that you seem to have the horrifying interpretation of what rape is. Rape is NOT erotic excitement, and that is very important, and that claim is outrageous. If you didn’t realize that before, and now you have, it does not hurt to admit that. Moral standards always improve as humans learn and gather more information. As I have linked in my link, it is about abuse and power. I have directly pointed this out multiple times in the message, you still repeatedly say it is a sexual instinct, which I have made clear it is not, nor it means nobody should tackle this, nor “dangerous distraction”.
If you mention emotion or something personal as opposed to arguing on the actual thing—I myself was also extremely bothered and frustrated by the comment on rape is erotic excitement, and could not take this off my mind and was talking to my friends about such claims, mostly identifying with women, and we were all very disappointed/horrified about such claims. Many many criminals use that to make excuses. Do you know how many people suffer, from that one sided “erotic excitement” even for someone there is anything sexual to it at all? There is nothing flourishing about this. Life is short, and I need to try my best to correct these (these kinds of comments are exactly reasons why I am worried, and why I try to raise awareness and educate) even if that means I suffer mentally from it. If you do not wish to be criticized, maybe be careful with how you present your arguments, and what is sensible to say, and what is not. If you are wrong/truly didn’t know/believed the wrong thing, then maybe update your belief.
I may have reached the point where I can crystallize my position into a few clear propositions:
First: I doubt the capacity of human beings using purely human methods like culture and the law, to 100% abolish any of these things. Reduce their frequency and their impact, yes.
Second: I believe the era in which the world is governed by “human beings using purely human methods” is rapidly coming to a close anyway, because of the rise of AI. Rather than the human condition being perfected in a triumph of good over evil, we are on track to be transformed and/or relegated to a minor role in the drama of being, in favor of new entities with quite different dispositions and concerns.
Third: I am not a sexologist or a criminologist, but I have serious doubts about an attempt to abolish rape, that wants to focus only on power and not on sexuality. I gather that this can be a good mindset for a recovering survivor, and any serious conversation on the topic of rape will necessarily touch on both power and sexuality anyway. But we’re talking abolition here, a condition that has never existed historically. As long as humanity contains beastly individuals who are simply indifferent to sympathy or seduction, and as long as some men and women drive enjoyment from playing out beastly scenarios, the ingredients will be there for rape to occur. That’s how it appears to me.
(Mentioned some of these in our chat, but allow me to be repetitive)
On first: I don’t think efforts to reduce rape or discrimination needs 100% abolition, but working towards that currently has huge return at this point of history. Education has snowball effect as well. Just because it is hard to achieve 100%, does not mean there should not be efforts, nor impossible at all. In fact, it is something that is rarely worked on alone; for example, one strategy might actually be to bring up education generally, or economic disparity, and during this process, teach people how to respect other people.
On second: We likely need good value system to align AI on, otherwise, the only alignment AI would know is probably not to overpower the most powerful human. But that does not seem to be the successful outcome of “aligned AI”. I think there are a few posts recently on this as well.
Third: I have seen many people having this confusion/mixed up: rape play/bdsm is consensual, and the definition of rape is non-consensual. Rape is purely about going against the person’s will. If you view it as murder it might be more comparable, but in this case, it is historically one group on to another group due to biological features and power differences that people cannot easily change on, though also a lot of men to men. In my view, it is worse than murder because it is extreme suffering, and that suffering will carry through the victims’ whole lives, and many may end with suicide anyways.
Otherwise, I am glad to see you thinking about these and open to discussion.