From Newcastle, Australia to Berkeley, San Francisco. I arrived yesterday for Less.online. I’ve had a bit of culture shock, a big helping of being increasingly scared, and quite a few questions. I’ll start with those. Feel free to skip them.
These questions are based on warnings I’ve gotten from local non-rationalists. Idk if they’re scared because of the media they consume or because of actual stats. I’m asking these because they feel untrue.
Is it ok to be outside after dark?
Will I really get ‘rolled’ mid day in Oakland?
Are there gangs walking around Oakland looking to stab people?
Will all the streets fill up with homeless people at night?
Are they chill? In Aus they’re usually down to talk if you are.
Culture shocks for your enjoyment:
Why is everyone doing yoga?
To my Uber driver: “THAT TRAIN IS ON THE ROAD!?”
“I thought (X) was just in movies!”
Your billboards are about science instead of coal mining!
“Wait, you’re telling me everything is vegan?” Thank Bayes, this is the best. All our vegan restaurants went out of business.
People brag about things? And they do it openly? At least, I think that’s what’s happening?
“Silicon Valley is actually a valley?!” Should have predicted this one. I kinda knew, but I didn’t know like I do now.
“Wow! This shop is openly selling nangs!” (whip its) “And a jungle juice display!”
All your cars are so new and shiny. 60% of ours are second hand
Most people I see in the streets look below 40. It’s like I’m walking around a university!
Wow. It’s really sunny.
American accents irl make me feel like I’m walking through a film.
“HOLY SHIT! A CYBER TRUCK?!”
Ok this is a big one. Apps I’ve had for 8+ years are suddenly different when I arrive here?
This is what Uber is meant to be. I will go back to Australia and cry. Your airport has custom instruction… in app! WHAT!? The car arrives in 2 minutes instead of 30 minutes. Also, the car arrives at all.
The google app has a beaker for tests now?
Snap maps has gifs in it
Apple Maps lets you scan buildings? And has tips about good restaurants and events?
When I bet in the Manifold app. A real paper Crain flies from the nearest tree, lands in front of me and unfolds. Written inside, “Will Eliezer Yudkowsky open a rationalist bakery?” I circle “Yes”. The paper meticulously folds itself back to a Crain. It looks at me. Makes a little sound that doesn’t echo in the streets but in my head, and it burns. Every time this happens I save the ashes. Are Manifold creating new matter? How are they doing this?
That one was a lie
Things that won’t kill me but scare me rational/irrational:
What if I’ve been wrong? What if this is all a scam? A cult? What if Mum was right?
What if I show up to the location and there is no building there?
What if I make some terribly awkward cultural blunder for SF and everyone yells at me?
What if no one tells me?
I’m sure I’ll be at least in the bottom 5% for intelligence at Less Online. I won’t be surprised or hurt if I’ve got the least Gs of people there. But what if it all goes over my head? Maybe I can’t even communicate with smart people about the things I care about.
What if I can’t handle people telling me what they think of my arguments without kid gloves? What if I get angry and haven’t learnt to handle that?
I’m just a Drama teacher and Psych student. My head is filled with improv games and fun facts about Clever Hans! ‘Average’ Americans seem to achieve much higher than ‘average’ Australians. I’m scared of feeling under qualified.
Other things:
Can you think of something I should be worried about, that I’ve not written here?
I’ve brought my copies of the Rationality A-Z books. I want to ask people I meet to sign their favourite post in the two books. Is that culturally acceptable? Feels kinda weird bc Yud is going to be there. But it would be a really warm/fuzzy item to me in the future.
I don’t actually know what a lot of the writers going look like. I hope this doesn’t result in a blunder. But might be funny, given that I expect rationalists to be pretty chill.
Are other people as excited about the Fooming Shoggoths as I am?
I’m 23, I have no idea if that is very old, very young, or about normal for a rationalist. I’d guess about normal, with big spread across the right of a graph.
It feels super weird to be in the same town as a bunch of you guys now. I’ve never met a rationalist irl. I talked to Ruby over zoom once, who said to me “You know you don’t have to stay in Australia right?” I hope Ruby is a good baseline for niceness levels of you all.
If you’re going, I’ll see you at Less.Online. If you’re not, I’d still love to meet you. Feel free to DM me!
I would bet hard cash that “I’m sure I’ll be at least in the bottom 5% for intelligence at Less Online. I won’t be surprised or hurt if I’ve got the least Gs of people there” is wrong.
But okay, let’s just go with your fears and assume for sake of argument that you’re right… Last year, Aella did a live polling event at Manifest where she asked us to, in general, first predict how we relatively compared to the crowd on any N, then define actual buckets of values and arrange ourselves by those buckets.
(So, e.g., “predict how recently have you exercised compared to others; the most recent, all the way on the left, the least recent, all the way on the right” and then “okay, let’s define from that fence to that chair as ‘in the last hour’, the chair to the steps as ‘in the last day’, etc.” and have folks line up twice based on first their relative guess, then their actual value.)
I was overall deeply surprised when she had folks line up under that system by SAT scores and IQ scores. It was, generally, extremely poorly correlated with how awesome it was to get to talk with a given person.
This post already expresses a great deal of the vibes that make me think it will be awesome to meet you, and that you get a lot of the vibes folks are aiming for, as far as I can tell. Looking forward to meeting ya!
Re safety, I don’t know about Oakland but some parts of SF are genuinely the most dangerous feeling places I’ve ever been to after dark (because normally I wouldn’t go somewhere, but SF feels very fine until it isn’t). If I am travelling to places in SF after dark I’ll check how dodgy the street entrances are.
berkeley, san francisco is like saying maitland, newcastle
re: #1: yeah I don’t feel unsafe outside after dark in the bay. If a homeless person walks by, I’ll just say hi and ask if they have any urgent unmet needs. even just acknowledging them as a person is a nice gesture, though. many will try to engage much more than you have time or interest for; it’s okay to just walk away from the convo.
had to look up what “getting rolled” is. yeah, it’s possible, but not that hard to avoid. if an area seems very poor, there will be more desperate people. but the highest risk of being robbed is probably opportunistically on the train. keep your eyes mobile; it’s probably a 1 in 300 to 1 in 3,000 train trips event, but it’s pretty annoying when it happens, to put it mildly.
I’m not aware of there being an intense presence of organized aggressive groups in oakland, but there’s certainly plenty of disorganized aggression, again mostly from desperate people. I got out of what was going to be a mugging once by offering to send them internet money (venmo) before they asked for anything, and they were so knocked off balance by this (I was saying “I don’t have cash but I can send it on an app”) that they almost bolted instead of accepting it. carry cash if you want to share it on purpose (people ask for money a lot and it feels nicer to say yes than no); don’t if you don’t. it’s not as bad as some places though, because the warmth means less desperation from homeless folks; homeless folks are usually pretty chill, if rather upset at the system. there is a specific ongoing aggressive presence: there are organized car-breakin and bike theft rings. but I don’t think it’s like gangs you may have heard about in the past in LA. the theft rings generally want to grab the thing and get the fuck away, not engage. if you hadn’t asked and nobody had told you, you probably wouldn’t even have noticed anything besides harmless homeless people mumbling something they think is interesting under their breath and not expecting to be understood because they get ignored by everyone.
yeah homeless people often have tents. it’s not where a civ would hope to be, but tents are just houses. treat it similarly.
is it a cult: you tell me whether it has the bad patterns that define cults. I’d personally say there have been cults spawned by it, but it’s more of a general community, with reasonably healthy community patterns. Don’t (ever) let your guard down about cults, though, in any context.
you should be worried someone convinces you to move to the bay. it’s not worth it. like, literally entirely for cost of housing reasons, no other reason, everything else is great, there’s a reason people are there anyway. but phew, the niceness comes with a honkin price tag. and no, living in a 10ft by 10ft room to get vaguely normal sounding rent is not a good idea, even though it’s possible.
average bay area people are definitely overachievers, see above about cost of housing. this is not true of america in general.
the most important california warnings are about weed: don’t buy weed. DON’T USE INHALED WEED. edibles can be a bad time if you take more than you think you’re taking, but won’t ruin your whole life as long as you go in with steadfast rules about when you have them, and rules like not buying them yourself. in fact, never use an inhaled or injected recreational drug, period—the fast uptake is extremely dangerous and will likely actually knock your motivation system off balance hard enough to probably ruin your life. you probably won’t be offered weed unless you ask for it, and even then most people won’t have any to share. If they do, it might be because they have a bad habit. It’s a fun drug when contained to a social setting, though. if someone has some I might suggest trying 2mg or less (ie, one fifth chunk of a normal 10mg edible), even if you’re used to weed it’s not the vibe I’d suggest for highly technical conversations.
you should be worried someone convinces you to move to the bay. it’s not worth it. like, literally entirely for cost of housing reasons, no other reason, everything else is great, there’s a reason people are there anyway. but phew, the niceness comes with a honkin price tag. and no, living in a 10ft by 10ft room to get vaguely normal sounding rent is not a good idea, even though it’s possible.
Why’s this not a good idea? 10ft by 10ft is a lot of room. More than I had in some flats when I went to university.
That’s fair, but it sounds like a personal preference. I asked because maybe you knew there was something unusually bad about small flats in the Bay Area that even folks like me would find annoying.
in fact, never use an inhaled or injected recreational drug, period—the fast uptake is extremely dangerous and will likely actually knock your motivation system off balance hard enough to probably ruin your life.
I don’t think this can be remotely justified by the evidence, formal or anecdotal. Inhaling weed isn’t dangerous, let alone extremely so, and will almost certainly not ruin anyone’s life, as the hundreds of millions of happy users can attest (get yours today!) Hell, shisha is an inhaled recreational drug!
I’m not sure it makes sense to generalise about an entire method of delivery, when all sorts of substances with very different effects can be consumed that way.
That first point made me laugh. It’s exactly the type of mistake I expected to make, and I still didn’t see it coming.
I appreciate all this safety advice and will update my decision making based on that.
Geez, the weed thing surprises me. I hadn’t planned to smoke any until after the event. But I think I’ll avoid that now. I’m already struggling with motivation from jet lag. I don’t want to increase that feeling.
The weed thing is not true. It can sap your motivation acutely, and perhaps even have a more sustained (if definitely temporary) effect. But it certainly doesn’t ruin your life by instantly “knocking your motivational system off balance”.
It’s a relatively chemically safe drug, but is easily habit forming and knocks you out of a productive space if used more than once every 3 to 6 months, imo. your reasoning seems reasonable. have fun with the trip!
I think go ahead and ask people to sign things. I’ve done it before and it went great, and the resulting book is a great memento. You’ve got a good conversation starter right there with asking them their favourite sequences post.
Re: safety, it depends on exactly where you are, your skill in assessing strangers’ intentions from a distance, and probably the way you carry yourself.
Speaking of which, I’d be interested in playing some improv games with you at less.online, if you want to do that!
I’m messing around with a post about this. However:
overwhelmingly positive
with a few things I was a little icked about
But I need to think about that more to understand if it’s a problem with me, or the thing that made me icked out
And thanks for checking in. That’s very kind of you
From Newcastle, Australia to Berkeley, San Francisco. I arrived yesterday for Less.online. I’ve had a bit of culture shock, a big helping of being increasingly scared, and quite a few questions. I’ll start with those. Feel free to skip them.
These questions are based on warnings I’ve gotten from local non-rationalists. Idk if they’re scared because of the media they consume or because of actual stats. I’m asking these because they feel untrue.
Is it ok to be outside after dark?
Will I really get ‘rolled’ mid day in Oakland?
Are there gangs walking around Oakland looking to stab people?
Will all the streets fill up with homeless people at night?
Are they chill? In Aus they’re usually down to talk if you are.
Culture shocks for your enjoyment:
Why is everyone doing yoga?
To my Uber driver: “THAT TRAIN IS ON THE ROAD!?”
“I thought (X) was just in movies!”
Your billboards are about science instead of coal mining!
“Wait, you’re telling me everything is vegan?” Thank Bayes, this is the best. All our vegan restaurants went out of business.
People brag about things? And they do it openly? At least, I think that’s what’s happening?
“Silicon Valley is actually a valley?!” Should have predicted this one. I kinda knew, but I didn’t know like I do now.
“Wow! This shop is openly selling nangs!” (whip its) “And a jungle juice display!”
All your cars are so new and shiny. 60% of ours are second hand
Most people I see in the streets look below 40. It’s like I’m walking around a university!
Wow. It’s really sunny.
American accents irl make me feel like I’m walking through a film.
“HOLY SHIT! A CYBER TRUCK?!”
Ok this is a big one. Apps I’ve had for 8+ years are suddenly different when I arrive here?
This is what Uber is meant to be. I will go back to Australia and cry. Your airport has custom instruction… in app! WHAT!? The car arrives in 2 minutes instead of 30 minutes. Also, the car arrives at all.
The google app has a beaker for tests now?
Snap maps has gifs in it
Apple Maps lets you scan buildings? And has tips about good restaurants and events?
When I bet in the Manifold app. A real paper Crain flies from the nearest tree, lands in front of me and unfolds. Written inside, “Will Eliezer Yudkowsky open a rationalist bakery?” I circle “Yes”. The paper meticulously folds itself back to a Crain. It looks at me. Makes a little sound that doesn’t echo in the streets but in my head, and it burns. Every time this happens I save the ashes. Are Manifold creating new matter? How are they doing this?
That one was a lie
Things that won’t kill me but scare me rational/irrational:
What if I’ve been wrong? What if this is all a scam? A cult? What if Mum was right?
What if I show up to the location and there is no building there?
What if I make some terribly awkward cultural blunder for SF and everyone yells at me?
What if no one tells me?
I’m sure I’ll be at least in the bottom 5% for intelligence at Less Online. I won’t be surprised or hurt if I’ve got the least Gs of people there. But what if it all goes over my head? Maybe I can’t even communicate with smart people about the things I care about.
What if I can’t handle people telling me what they think of my arguments without kid gloves? What if I get angry and haven’t learnt to handle that?
I’m just a Drama teacher and Psych student. My head is filled with improv games and fun facts about Clever Hans! ‘Average’ Americans seem to achieve much higher than ‘average’ Australians. I’m scared of feeling under qualified.
Other things:
Can you think of something I should be worried about, that I’ve not written here?
I’ve brought my copies of the Rationality A-Z books. I want to ask people I meet to sign their favourite post in the two books. Is that culturally acceptable? Feels kinda weird bc Yud is going to be there. But it would be a really warm/fuzzy item to me in the future.
I don’t actually know what a lot of the writers going look like. I hope this doesn’t result in a blunder. But might be funny, given that I expect rationalists to be pretty chill.
Are other people as excited about the Fooming Shoggoths as I am?
I’m 23, I have no idea if that is very old, very young, or about normal for a rationalist. I’d guess about normal, with big spread across the right of a graph.
It feels super weird to be in the same town as a bunch of you guys now. I’ve never met a rationalist irl. I talked to Ruby over zoom once, who said to me “You know you don’t have to stay in Australia right?” I hope Ruby is a good baseline for niceness levels of you all.
If you’re going, I’ll see you at Less.Online. If you’re not, I’d still love to meet you. Feel free to DM me!
I would bet hard cash that “I’m sure I’ll be at least in the bottom 5% for intelligence at Less Online. I won’t be surprised or hurt if I’ve got the least Gs of people there” is wrong.
But okay, let’s just go with your fears and assume for sake of argument that you’re right… Last year, Aella did a live polling event at Manifest where she asked us to, in general, first predict how we relatively compared to the crowd on any N, then define actual buckets of values and arrange ourselves by those buckets.
(So, e.g., “predict how recently have you exercised compared to others; the most recent, all the way on the left, the least recent, all the way on the right” and then “okay, let’s define from that fence to that chair as ‘in the last hour’, the chair to the steps as ‘in the last day’, etc.” and have folks line up twice based on first their relative guess, then their actual value.)
I was overall deeply surprised when she had folks line up under that system by SAT scores and IQ scores. It was, generally, extremely poorly correlated with how awesome it was to get to talk with a given person.
This post already expresses a great deal of the vibes that make me think it will be awesome to meet you, and that you get a lot of the vibes folks are aiming for, as far as I can tell. Looking forward to meeting ya!
Re safety, I don’t know about Oakland but some parts of SF are genuinely the most dangerous feeling places I’ve ever been to after dark (because normally I wouldn’t go somewhere, but SF feels very fine until it isn’t). If I am travelling to places in SF after dark I’ll check how dodgy the street entrances are.
Have fun! I won’t be going. Some random notes:
berkeley, san francisco is like saying maitland, newcastle
re: #1: yeah I don’t feel unsafe outside after dark in the bay. If a homeless person walks by, I’ll just say hi and ask if they have any urgent unmet needs. even just acknowledging them as a person is a nice gesture, though. many will try to engage much more than you have time or interest for; it’s okay to just walk away from the convo.
had to look up what “getting rolled” is. yeah, it’s possible, but not that hard to avoid. if an area seems very poor, there will be more desperate people. but the highest risk of being robbed is probably opportunistically on the train. keep your eyes mobile; it’s probably a 1 in 300 to 1 in 3,000 train trips event, but it’s pretty annoying when it happens, to put it mildly.
I’m not aware of there being an intense presence of organized aggressive groups in oakland, but there’s certainly plenty of disorganized aggression, again mostly from desperate people. I got out of what was going to be a mugging once by offering to send them internet money (venmo) before they asked for anything, and they were so knocked off balance by this (I was saying “I don’t have cash but I can send it on an app”) that they almost bolted instead of accepting it. carry cash if you want to share it on purpose (people ask for money a lot and it feels nicer to say yes than no); don’t if you don’t. it’s not as bad as some places though, because the warmth means less desperation from homeless folks; homeless folks are usually pretty chill, if rather upset at the system. there is a specific ongoing aggressive presence: there are organized car-breakin and bike theft rings. but I don’t think it’s like gangs you may have heard about in the past in LA. the theft rings generally want to grab the thing and get the fuck away, not engage. if you hadn’t asked and nobody had told you, you probably wouldn’t even have noticed anything besides harmless homeless people mumbling something they think is interesting under their breath and not expecting to be understood because they get ignored by everyone.
yeah homeless people often have tents. it’s not where a civ would hope to be, but tents are just houses. treat it similarly.
is it a cult: you tell me whether it has the bad patterns that define cults. I’d personally say there have been cults spawned by it, but it’s more of a general community, with reasonably healthy community patterns. Don’t (ever) let your guard down about cults, though, in any context.
you should be worried someone convinces you to move to the bay. it’s not worth it. like, literally entirely for cost of housing reasons, no other reason, everything else is great, there’s a reason people are there anyway. but phew, the niceness comes with a honkin price tag. and no, living in a 10ft by 10ft room to get vaguely normal sounding rent is not a good idea, even though it’s possible.
average bay area people are definitely overachievers, see above about cost of housing. this is not true of america in general.
the most important california warnings are about weed: don’t buy weed. DON’T USE INHALED WEED. edibles can be a bad time if you take more than you think you’re taking, but won’t ruin your whole life as long as you go in with steadfast rules about when you have them, and rules like not buying them yourself. in fact, never use an inhaled or injected recreational drug, period—the fast uptake is extremely dangerous and will likely actually knock your motivation system off balance hard enough to probably ruin your life. you probably won’t be offered weed unless you ask for it, and even then most people won’t have any to share. If they do, it might be because they have a bad habit. It’s a fun drug when contained to a social setting, though. if someone has some I might suggest trying 2mg or less (ie, one fifth chunk of a normal 10mg edible), even if you’re used to weed it’s not the vibe I’d suggest for highly technical conversations.
Why’s this not a good idea? 10ft by 10ft is a lot of room. More than I had in some flats when I went to university.
I went pretty stir crazy without enough room to move around.
That’s fair, but it sounds like a personal preference. I asked because maybe you knew there was something unusually bad about small flats in the Bay Area that even folks like me would find annoying.
I don’t think this can be remotely justified by the evidence, formal or anecdotal. Inhaling weed isn’t dangerous, let alone extremely so, and will almost certainly not ruin anyone’s life, as the hundreds of millions of happy users can attest (get yours today!) Hell, shisha is an inhaled recreational drug!
I’m not sure it makes sense to generalise about an entire method of delivery, when all sorts of substances with very different effects can be consumed that way.
That first point made me laugh. It’s exactly the type of mistake I expected to make, and I still didn’t see it coming.
I appreciate all this safety advice and will update my decision making based on that.
Geez, the weed thing surprises me. I hadn’t planned to smoke any until after the event. But I think I’ll avoid that now. I’m already struggling with motivation from jet lag. I don’t want to increase that feeling.
The weed thing is not true. It can sap your motivation acutely, and perhaps even have a more sustained (if definitely temporary) effect. But it certainly doesn’t ruin your life by instantly “knocking your motivational system off balance”.
It’s a relatively chemically safe drug, but is easily habit forming and knocks you out of a productive space if used more than once every 3 to 6 months, imo. your reasoning seems reasonable. have fun with the trip!
I think go ahead and ask people to sign things. I’ve done it before and it went great, and the resulting book is a great memento. You’ve got a good conversation starter right there with asking them their favourite sequences post.
Welcome to the US!
Re: safety, it depends on exactly where you are, your skill in assessing strangers’ intentions from a distance, and probably the way you carry yourself.
Speaking of which, I’d be interested in playing some improv games with you at less.online, if you want to do that!
Hmmm, I think I’m mostly bad at those things. I’ll play it safe.
And thanks for the good idea! I’ve added a session at 3pm on the Sunday.
How did you like your trip in the end?
I’m messing around with a post about this. However:
overwhelmingly positive
with a few things I was a little icked about But I need to think about that more to understand if it’s a problem with me, or the thing that made me icked out
And thanks for checking in. That’s very kind of you
Welcome to the US; excited for your time at LessOnline (and maybe Manifest too?)
And re: 19., we’re working on it![1]
(Sorry, that was a lie too.)
Please don’t ask on Manifold, you might incentivize creating one.