Do you react similarly to all instances in which people try to correct other people’s usage? Or only some, and if so, which sorts? In other words, corrections of which of the following do you consider pedantry/elitism, and which do you think are justified:
Spelling
Grammar
Style
Cliches, awkward constructions, etc. (e.g. Orwell’s complaints)
Incorrect usage of terminology
Other?
I don’t mean this as a rebuttal; I’m genuinely curious about your opinion on descriptive vs. prescriptive language rules.
I’m pretty descriptivist. In terms of whether I consider a thing to be justified or elitism, it entirely depends on context. If someone makes a statement and your complaint about that statement is imprecise use of the word precision, then you are being pedantic, and not actually addressing the relevant statement. Similarly, frowning on people’s (debatable)misuse of words like comprise serves no purpose other than to display your greater knowledge (ie higher status) of definition and minutiae. On the other hand, if someone tips lik thes wen triing tu comminicate I view correction as fully justified. Similarly, if talking about the specifics of a field where jargon is to be expected and understood by all parties, I don’t mind someone correcting someone’s understanding of bytes or bits, or whether something is an ape or a hominid.
Fair enough. The following, then, is a rebuttal to your top-level comment.
If you use two words interchangeably, whose meanings are originally distinct, then you lose the ability to use your word choice in this case to indicate one of the meanings and not the other. Meanwhile, your audience is no longer able to divine, from your word choice, which thing you mean. This weakens your ability to communicate effectively.
I am then making the additional, empirical claim that a common cause of these sorts of mistakes is people using words or phrases without being aware of the specifics of their meaning. In the case of word substitution, the writer is not aware that the words mean different things; or is not aware that a word has multiple, possibly opposed, meanings; or has no idea what a saying or expression really means. This may not be the only cause of misuse[1] of any of the words or phrases I mentioned, but it’s one cause, and I think a common one.
The follow-up claim is that being unaware of distinctions between words (and the concepts to which they refer), or being unaware of the ideas referred to by the phrases you use, is bad for you. That is what I was alluding to with the last two links in my post.
All of this is not to say that in real life, if you made some statement in which you use “accurate” instead of “precise”, my first reaction would be “Now hang on there, my good man, don’t you mean ‘precise’? Take care not to make such embarrassing slips!” I would — silently, almost unconsciously — quickly weigh the likelihood of you intending one meaning vs. the other; situate your word choice in the context of your statement and the surrounding conversation; and in any case we may well not be discussing matters so grave that the distinction even matters. Finally, if I’m still confused and I think it matters, I can just ask for clarification — though I mentioned in my post that this doesn’t always go well, especially if you are in fact not aware that the two words have different meanings in the first place.
There is a difference, however, between that sort of communication and the kind where your intended meaning is completely transparent to me and where you are conveying exactly the ideas you mean to convey, with no ambiguity and no chance of misunderstanding. I am not sure what to make of the attitude that this is not, all else being equal, preferable to the other sort. (Note: I am not ascribing such an attitude to you.)
That being said, though, I would prefer not to recapitulate any of the standard descriptivist vs. prescriptivist arguments here, not least because I don’t think I have anything particularly new to add to that debate. I only hope to have clarified that my problem isn’t with incorrect[2] usage per se; it’s with the consequences of this particular cause of incorrect usage.
[1] By “misuse” here I only mean “divergence from accepted or standard usage”; this isn’t to imply that such divergence is automatically “wrong” in an absolute sense. [2] Same here.
I think you may have a legitimate point but agree with the thread OP that your examples are poor.
You stated the source of my disagreement yourself: “Cargo cult language [can be recognized with] the question: “What do you mean by that?”.”
[Warning, obvious statement incoming]
I believe that in most cases where someone says precise in a place where the word accurate would make more sense, while they may be hiding some hidden connotative inferences (as is the human norm), they do have a meaning in mind, the concept of accuracy.
Thus they can answer your question “what do you mean by that,” although their answer may be missing some of the incoherent inferences they were making, like “in a sciencey way!”
Certainly they can answer the question. The indication of cargo cult language, as I conceive it, isn’t necessarily that the speaker can’t answer the question, but that it’s asked in the first place (cf. my third example); in other words, there’s a suspicion that the actual meaning of the word/phrase the speaker used does not match what they intended to say (because they don’t actually know what the word/phrase means).
Under that interpretation, “it often isn’t clear whether the speaker really knows what he’s saying and means to say it or is simply parroting.” is a false dichotomy.
The speaker can know what they mean to say, accidentally say something different, and not be simply parroting. They may even be understood because e.g. using accuracy and precision as synonyms is common vernacular.
SaidAchmiz asked for an opinion and I gave an honest one. I may be wrong in the view of some other people but that is still my honest opinion. It is not an overgeneralization as I believe that in all cases, in all situations, at all times the descriptive approach is preferable to the prescriptive one.
The descriptive approach may well be universally preferable to the prescriptive one, but that does not make it more scientific, productive, and interesting. It need not be preferable in every respect.
Do you react similarly to all instances in which people try to correct other people’s usage? Or only some, and if so, which sorts? In other words, corrections of which of the following do you consider pedantry/elitism, and which do you think are justified:
Spelling
Grammar
Style
Cliches, awkward constructions, etc. (e.g. Orwell’s complaints)
Incorrect usage of terminology
Other?
I don’t mean this as a rebuttal; I’m genuinely curious about your opinion on descriptive vs. prescriptive language rules.
I’m pretty descriptivist. In terms of whether I consider a thing to be justified or elitism, it entirely depends on context. If someone makes a statement and your complaint about that statement is imprecise use of the word precision, then you are being pedantic, and not actually addressing the relevant statement. Similarly, frowning on people’s (debatable)misuse of words like comprise serves no purpose other than to display your greater knowledge (ie higher status) of definition and minutiae. On the other hand, if someone tips lik thes wen triing tu comminicate I view correction as fully justified. Similarly, if talking about the specifics of a field where jargon is to be expected and understood by all parties, I don’t mind someone correcting someone’s understanding of bytes or bits, or whether something is an ape or a hominid.
Fair enough. The following, then, is a rebuttal to your top-level comment.
If you use two words interchangeably, whose meanings are originally distinct, then you lose the ability to use your word choice in this case to indicate one of the meanings and not the other. Meanwhile, your audience is no longer able to divine, from your word choice, which thing you mean. This weakens your ability to communicate effectively.
I am then making the additional, empirical claim that a common cause of these sorts of mistakes is people using words or phrases without being aware of the specifics of their meaning. In the case of word substitution, the writer is not aware that the words mean different things; or is not aware that a word has multiple, possibly opposed, meanings; or has no idea what a saying or expression really means. This may not be the only cause of misuse[1] of any of the words or phrases I mentioned, but it’s one cause, and I think a common one.
The follow-up claim is that being unaware of distinctions between words (and the concepts to which they refer), or being unaware of the ideas referred to by the phrases you use, is bad for you. That is what I was alluding to with the last two links in my post.
All of this is not to say that in real life, if you made some statement in which you use “accurate” instead of “precise”, my first reaction would be “Now hang on there, my good man, don’t you mean ‘precise’? Take care not to make such embarrassing slips!” I would — silently, almost unconsciously — quickly weigh the likelihood of you intending one meaning vs. the other; situate your word choice in the context of your statement and the surrounding conversation; and in any case we may well not be discussing matters so grave that the distinction even matters. Finally, if I’m still confused and I think it matters, I can just ask for clarification — though I mentioned in my post that this doesn’t always go well, especially if you are in fact not aware that the two words have different meanings in the first place.
There is a difference, however, between that sort of communication and the kind where your intended meaning is completely transparent to me and where you are conveying exactly the ideas you mean to convey, with no ambiguity and no chance of misunderstanding. I am not sure what to make of the attitude that this is not, all else being equal, preferable to the other sort. (Note: I am not ascribing such an attitude to you.)
That being said, though, I would prefer not to recapitulate any of the standard descriptivist vs. prescriptivist arguments here, not least because I don’t think I have anything particularly new to add to that debate. I only hope to have clarified that my problem isn’t with incorrect[2] usage per se; it’s with the consequences of this particular cause of incorrect usage.
[1] By “misuse” here I only mean “divergence from accepted or standard usage”; this isn’t to imply that such divergence is automatically “wrong” in an absolute sense.
[2] Same here.
I think you may have a legitimate point but agree with the thread OP that your examples are poor.
You stated the source of my disagreement yourself: “Cargo cult language [can be recognized with] the question: “What do you mean by that?”.”
[Warning, obvious statement incoming]
I believe that in most cases where someone says precise in a place where the word accurate would make more sense, while they may be hiding some hidden connotative inferences (as is the human norm), they do have a meaning in mind, the concept of accuracy.
Thus they can answer your question “what do you mean by that,” although their answer may be missing some of the incoherent inferences they were making, like “in a sciencey way!”
Certainly they can answer the question. The indication of cargo cult language, as I conceive it, isn’t necessarily that the speaker can’t answer the question, but that it’s asked in the first place (cf. my third example); in other words, there’s a suspicion that the actual meaning of the word/phrase the speaker used does not match what they intended to say (because they don’t actually know what the word/phrase means).
Under that interpretation, “it often isn’t clear whether the speaker really knows what he’s saying and means to say it or is simply parroting.” is a false dichotomy.
The speaker can know what they mean to say, accidentally say something different, and not be simply parroting. They may even be understood because e.g. using accuracy and precision as synonyms is common vernacular.
In all cases 1-6 - descriptive is scientific, productive, interesting while prescriptive is without evidence, harmful and boring.
Downvoted for overgeneralization.
SaidAchmiz asked for an opinion and I gave an honest one. I may be wrong in the view of some other people but that is still my honest opinion. It is not an overgeneralization as I believe that in all cases, in all situations, at all times the descriptive approach is preferable to the prescriptive one.
The descriptive approach may well be universally preferable to the prescriptive one, but that does not make it more scientific, productive, and interesting. It need not be preferable in every respect.