Anybody else think the modern university system is grossly inefficient? Most of the people I knew in undergrad spend most of their time drinking to excess and skipping classes. In addition, barely half of undergraduates get their B.A in 6 years after starting. The whole system is hugely expensive in both direct subsidies and opportunity costs.
I think that society would benefit from switching to computer based learning systems for most kinds of classes. For example, I took two economics courses that incorporated CBL elements, and I found them vastly more engrossing and much more time-efficient than the lecture sections. Instead of applying to selective universities (which gain status by denying more students entry than others) people could get most of their prerequisites out of the way in a few months with standard CBL programs administered at a marginal cost of $0.
Anybody else think the modern university system is grossly inefficient?
Yep. They mainly persist as a way to sort workers: those that can get through, and with a degree in X at university Y, are good enough to be trusted to job Z (even though, as is usually the case, nothing in X actually pertains to Z—you’re just signaling your general qualifications for being taken on to do job Z).
Having the degree is a good proxy for certain skills like intelligence, diligence, etc. Why not test for intelligence directly? Because in the US and most industrialized countries, it’s illegal, so they have to test you by proxy—let the university give you an IQ test as a standard for admission, but not call it that.
Shifting to a system that actually makes sense is going to require overcoming a lot of inertia.
I agree with this analysis to some extent. I’m not sure I’m willing to grant that the primary purpose of universities is a way to sort workers, but that is a major thing they’re used for, and I tend to argue at length that they should get out of that business. I argue as much as possible against student evaluation, grading, and granting degrees. One of the first arguments that pops up tends to be, “But how will people know who to hire / let into grad school?”
But I don’t think it’s the University’s job to answer that question.
Clearly universities are grossly inefficient at teaching, but as Robin Hanson would say, School isn’t about Learning.
The education system in general in most Western countries is grossly inefficient but that is largely because it is not structured in a way that rewards educating efficiently, and that is exactly how most of the participants want it.
Oh, and to add to my earlier comment, another major problem with the system is the difficulty with which you can dismiss employees, which extends through most industrialized countries. This makes it much harder to take a chance on anyone, significantly restricting the set of who has a chance at any job, and thus requiring much more proof in advance.
And what frustrates me the most is that most such regulations/legal environments are called “pro-worker” and the debate on them framed from the assumption that if you want to help workers you must want these laws. No, no, no! These laws make it labor markets much more rigid.
Remember, whatever requirement you force on employers as a surprise, they will soon take into account when looking to hire their next albatross. There’s no free lunch! These benefits can only be transient and favor only people lucky enough working at a particular time. As time goes by, you just see more and more roundabout, wasteful ways to get around the restrictions. (Note the analogy to “push the fat guy off the trolley” problems...)
Are you talking about the US? The statistic suggests that you’re talking about somewhere specific. I’ll assume the US.
You have several claims that are not obviously related. That’s not to say that I disagree with any of them, though I probably would disagree with the implicit claims that relate them, if I had to guess what they were. One red flag is the conflation of public and private schools, which have different goals and methods. The 6 year graduation rate is really about public schools, right? But then you invoke selective schools in the last paragraph.
Thank you, this was a quite useful link for me. (Finnish colleges currently charge no tuition fees, and some are arguing for their introduction on the basis that this would make people graduate faster; those statistics show that US students don’t really graduate any much better than Finnish ones.)
I certainly agree that CBL is useful, and the system as a whole is riddled with inefficiencies and perverse incentives.
However, I think a lot of the problem there is actually a matter of cultural context. Prior to entering college, those undegrads learned that drinking is something fun grownups are allowed to do, whereas listening to the teacher and doing homework are trials to be either grimly endured, or minimized by good behavior in other areas.
College is often a way for 18 year olds to delay social adulthood for 4-6 years. This American Life did a very good episode on the drinking culture at the USA’s #1 party school, Penn State, that proves this point beyond a reasonable doubt. Time and time again binge drinking students say that the reason they are doing it and the reason they love Penn State is because this is the only chance in their lives they are going to have to live this lifestyle.
TAL sells the MP3 of the show or it’s widely available on torrent sites with a simple Google search.
It’s not that meaningful of a ranking; Penn State was anointed the #1 party school by an online poll done by the Princeton Review. It did however prove that out of all of the schools with strong school spirit and insane binge drinking cultures, the students at Penn State are the best at rigging online polls. In other words, Penn State is the #1 party school because the students decided they wanted to be considered the #1 party school.
This is the figure I was referencing. 53% graduate in 6 years. Charles Murray (of The Bell Curve fame believes that most people just aren’t smart enough for college level work. Based on my experience, “college level work” isn’t very difficult, so I remain skeptical.
You’re from Illinois, right? Its graduation rate of 59% is barely higher than the US average of 56%. UIUC’s rate is 80%, ISU 60%, and NEIU 20%. NEIU isn’t very big, but there might be lots of similar schools. (ETA: actually NEIU+CSU are already pretty close to canceling out UIUC.)
Am I from Illinois? No, actually—Maryland. Checking the data, it seems I’m in a very strange statistical anomaly: 82% in 6 years. At a state university.
You are at the state flagship. 82% at College Park is roughly equal to Urbana-Champaign’s 80%. The point is that top schools pick students who can get through and/or do a better job of getting students through.
Anybody else think the modern university system is grossly inefficient? Most of the people I knew in undergrad spend most of their time drinking to excess and skipping classes. In addition, barely half of undergraduates get their B.A in 6 years after starting. The whole system is hugely expensive in both direct subsidies and opportunity costs.
I think that society would benefit from switching to computer based learning systems for most kinds of classes. For example, I took two economics courses that incorporated CBL elements, and I found them vastly more engrossing and much more time-efficient than the lecture sections. Instead of applying to selective universities (which gain status by denying more students entry than others) people could get most of their prerequisites out of the way in a few months with standard CBL programs administered at a marginal cost of $0.
Only if I consider the modern university system (or education institutions in general) to have a primary purpose of conveying knowledge.
Yep. They mainly persist as a way to sort workers: those that can get through, and with a degree in X at university Y, are good enough to be trusted to job Z (even though, as is usually the case, nothing in X actually pertains to Z—you’re just signaling your general qualifications for being taken on to do job Z).
Having the degree is a good proxy for certain skills like intelligence, diligence, etc. Why not test for intelligence directly? Because in the US and most industrialized countries, it’s illegal, so they have to test you by proxy—let the university give you an IQ test as a standard for admission, but not call it that.
Shifting to a system that actually makes sense is going to require overcoming a lot of inertia.
I agree with this analysis to some extent. I’m not sure I’m willing to grant that the primary purpose of universities is a way to sort workers, but that is a major thing they’re used for, and I tend to argue at length that they should get out of that business. I argue as much as possible against student evaluation, grading, and granting degrees. One of the first arguments that pops up tends to be, “But how will people know who to hire / let into grad school?”
But I don’t think it’s the University’s job to answer that question.
Clearly universities are grossly inefficient at teaching, but as Robin Hanson would say, School isn’t about Learning.
The education system in general in most Western countries is grossly inefficient but that is largely because it is not structured in a way that rewards educating efficiently, and that is exactly how most of the participants want it.
Oh, and to add to my earlier comment, another major problem with the system is the difficulty with which you can dismiss employees, which extends through most industrialized countries. This makes it much harder to take a chance on anyone, significantly restricting the set of who has a chance at any job, and thus requiring much more proof in advance.
And what frustrates me the most is that most such regulations/legal environments are called “pro-worker” and the debate on them framed from the assumption that if you want to help workers you must want these laws. No, no, no! These laws make it labor markets much more rigid.
Remember, whatever requirement you force on employers as a surprise, they will soon take into account when looking to hire their next albatross. There’s no free lunch! These benefits can only be transient and favor only people lucky enough working at a particular time. As time goes by, you just see more and more roundabout, wasteful ways to get around the restrictions. (Note the analogy to “push the fat guy off the trolley” problems...)
Are you talking about the US? The statistic suggests that you’re talking about somewhere specific. I’ll assume the US.
You have several claims that are not obviously related. That’s not to say that I disagree with any of them, though I probably would disagree with the implicit claims that relate them, if I had to guess what they were. One red flag is the conflation of public and private schools, which have different goals and methods. The 6 year graduation rate is really about public schools, right? But then you invoke selective schools in the last paragraph.
The six year rate is is a nationwide average for the united states.
Thank you, this was a quite useful link for me. (Finnish colleges currently charge no tuition fees, and some are arguing for their introduction on the basis that this would make people graduate faster; those statistics show that US students don’t really graduate any much better than Finnish ones.)
I stand by my statement.
Well, then I guess I’m triple special for getting a degree straight from high school in 2.5 years. In engineering. [/toots horn]
I certainly agree that CBL is useful, and the system as a whole is riddled with inefficiencies and perverse incentives.
However, I think a lot of the problem there is actually a matter of cultural context. Prior to entering college, those undegrads learned that drinking is something fun grownups are allowed to do, whereas listening to the teacher and doing homework are trials to be either grimly endured, or minimized by good behavior in other areas.
College is often a way for 18 year olds to delay social adulthood for 4-6 years. This American Life did a very good episode on the drinking culture at the USA’s #1 party school, Penn State, that proves this point beyond a reasonable doubt. Time and time again binge drinking students say that the reason they are doing it and the reason they love Penn State is because this is the only chance in their lives they are going to have to live this lifestyle.
TAL sells the MP3 of the show or it’s widely available on torrent sites with a simple Google search.
It’s very interesting that Penn State was ranked a number 1 party school, since it’s probably one of America’s most respected schools!
It’s not that meaningful of a ranking; Penn State was anointed the #1 party school by an online poll done by the Princeton Review. It did however prove that out of all of the schools with strong school spirit and insane binge drinking cultures, the students at Penn State are the best at rigging online polls. In other words, Penn State is the #1 party school because the students decided they wanted to be considered the #1 party school.
I think you are confusing Penn State with the University of Pennsylvania.
U. Penn is also a highly respected school. Penn State is considered a Public Ivy.
Penn is more respected than Penn State, but Penn State is one of the top public schools in the USA -- #15 on US News’s rather controversial list. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-top-public
Do you have a statistic to back up the 6-years figure? The graduation rate appears higher than that to me.
This is the figure I was referencing. 53% graduate in 6 years. Charles Murray (of The Bell Curve fame believes that most people just aren’t smart enough for college level work. Based on my experience, “college level work” isn’t very difficult, so I remain skeptical.
6 year graduation rates
You’re from Illinois, right? Its graduation rate of 59% is barely higher than the US average of 56%. UIUC’s rate is 80%, ISU 60%, and NEIU 20%. NEIU isn’t very big, but there might be lots of similar schools. (ETA: actually NEIU+CSU are already pretty close to canceling out UIUC.)
Am I from Illinois? No, actually—Maryland. Checking the data, it seems I’m in a very strange statistical anomaly: 82% in 6 years. At a state university.
No wonder my impressions were skewed.
You are at the state flagship. 82% at College Park is roughly equal to Urbana-Champaign’s 80%. The point is that top schools pick students who can get through and/or do a better job of getting students through.