I’ve found that I can tolerate bigotry a lot better than I can tolerate bigoted policy proposals
What definition of “bigotry” are you using? The “standard definition” amounts to “applying Bayesian priors to people”. So is discussion of the policy implications of Bayesian reasoning now punishable by banning without notice? Also since you admit that he didn’t actually make the proposal but was “close to suggesting” it does that mean that even being “close to suggesting” implications of Bayesian reasoning for policy is bannable?
Note to Eliezer or any super-administrators reading this: I strongly suggest that in the interest of keeping LessWrong a place where people can discuss rationality without fear of suddenly being banned, NancyLebovitz’s administrative privileges be revoked immediately.
Lots of people had expressed annoyance at advandcedatheist talking about the same topic over and over again. That’s hardly “sudden”. (OTOH I would have preferred him to be officially warned by a moderator before being banned.)
In English the word “bigot” refers to a person whose habitual state of mind includes an obstinate, irrational, or unfair intolerance of ideas, opinions, or beliefs that differ from their own, and intolerance of the people who hold them.
Which was the standard meaning of “bigotry” a century ago. Ok, let’s apply this definition to the current situation: it would appear that NancyLebowitz is more guilty of bigotry then AA. Does that mean she should be banned?
Again, ISTM NancyLebovitz (and other LW readers in general) are less intolerant of AA’s ideas themselves than of his continuing to post them over and over again after people have made abundantly clear they’re not interested in reading them for the zillionth time, so a response to an extraordinary situation and not a “habitual” state of mind. And AA does seem intolerant of the idea of women’s sexual freedom.
Again, ISTM NancyLebovitz (and other LW readers in general) are less intolerant of AA’s ideas themselves than of his continuing to post them over and over again after people have made abundantly clear they’re not interested in reading them for the zillionth time
Then Nancy should ban him based on his habit of repetitively posting, rather than what she actually banned him for, which is for “bigoted policy proposals” (and worse yet, for just almost making bigoted policy proposals). Banning him for that makes it much more dangerous for me to support limits on immigration, say almost anything concrete about how to use IQ tests that falls on the wrong side, connect vegetarianism to abortion, give many answers to the trolley problem, or otherwise speak about a lot of topics that turn up in discussions that have nothing to do with AA.
I wouldn’t actually have a problem with the ban if she banned him for repetitively posting.
Well, would you care to enlighten us as to your definition of “bigotry”. Bonus if the definition refers to something obviously bad and something AA was guilty of.
If you focus on labels instead of on individuals, you’re a bigot.
If your treatment of people is based on tribal allegiances, real or imagined, instead of what they’ve actually done, you’re a bigot.
If you already have an opinion on someone you’ve just met, based on appearances only, before you’ve bothered getting to know them, you’re a bigot.
If you blame an entire category of people for the actions of select outliers, you’re a bigot.
If you believe all members of an arbitrarily defined category of people behave the same way or think the same way or can be expected to respond in the same way, you’re a bigot.
If there’s a group of people you especially like to hate, you’re a bigot.
If you’re an identity essentialist, you’re a bigot.
If you believe there are “superior” and “inferior” classes of people, you’re an über bigot.
I’m guessing you disapprove of some of the things polymathwannabe lists, much as PMWB does, but think others are fine. It might be more interesting to know which.
I disapprove of assigning labels on the basis of checklists to start with, the same labels that polymathwannabe professes to dislike in his first sentence.
Any particular reason you ask? I’m not a big fan of purity/political correctness/ideological orientation tests either. Got to focus on the individual, y’know.. :-P
I can’t see why you’d have posted as you did if you didn’t want to (1) point out what you see as deficiencies in PMWB’s list of alleged features of bigots and/or (2) tell us something about yourself; but what you’ve said so far doesn’t provide enough information to identify the alleged deficiencies or determine much about you. So it seems like you haven’t done what you intended to.
Look at all the effective altruism and utilitarian arguments that basically imply that you should consider the welfare of all people in the world equally and that putting more weight on yourself, your family, and people who are close to you or who resemble you is just not something that rational people are supposed to be doing.
And then they get called bigots, and then bigots get banned....
My aunts resent me for this, but you guessed right: I do not hold the accident of genetic closeness alone as a valid reason for preferential treatment. To quote Gabriel García Márquez,
one does not love one’s children just because they are one’s children but because of the friendship formed while raising them.
My aunts resent me for this, but you guessed right: I do not hold the accident of genetic closeness alone as a valid reason for preferential treatment.
That’s not the point of the question*. The question is whether anybody who doesn’t see things that way is a bigot.
*: Unless of course you define being a bigot as having different preference than you have.
In itself, treating your relatives nicely because they’re family doesn’t seem to sound too bad; it sounds like the obvious and natural thing everybody would do. The problem I have with it is that it means you’re intentionally treating everybody else less nicely because they’re not family, which to me is a very weak reason to withhold your good will. When taken to the field of real-life decisions, it takes the form of nepotism, which can be seen as bigotry against the entire rest of humanity.
How is that even relevant? I don’t see anything about genetic closeness up there. I do see a reference to family, which is not the same thing and can easily include people with “friendship formed”.
If you already have an opinion on someone you’ve just met, based on appearances only, before you’ve bothered getting to know them, you’re a bigot.
This is what Baysian logic requires that you do.
If you believe all members of an arbitrarily defined category of people behave the same way or think the same way or can be expected to respond in the same way, you’re a bigot.
I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone do this. (Hint: sex, race, religion, etc., aren’t arbitrary categories).
If there’s a group of people you especially like to hate, you’re a bigot.
I have murderers and child-molesters.
If you’re an identity essentialist, you’re a bigot.
Ok, now define “identity essentialism”, I’m have a hard time coming up with a definition that’s not largely true.
If you believe there are “superior” and “inferior” classes of people, you’re an über bigot.
Does it matter if this is actually true for the metric under discussion.
Sometimes I do, but then I update my beliefs about them based on the evidence (or at least I try to—I’m not a Platonic spherical perfectly rational being). In any event, even with people I haven’t interacted with before I usually have more information than “appearances only”, e.g. where we are, who introduced us to each other, and whether I have already heard of them before.
I was assuming that by “interact” in the great-grandparent you meant more substantive stuff than passing each other on the street. If you weren’t, my point still stands: Bayesian logic requires one to have an opinion about strangers passing in the street, but only in the way it requires one to have an opinion about the triple point pressure of copper.
I somehow doubt that “opinion” in “If you already have an opinion on someone you’ve just met, based on appearances only, before you’ve bothered getting to know them” was meant to include stuff as vague as “they’re probably not going to mug me”, but whatevs—tapping out.
Why should I care about having opinions (in the regular sense of the word, not in the sense of probability distributions other than maximum entropy) about people I’m just passing on the street?
If you believe all members of an arbitrarily defined category of people behave the same way or think the same way or can be expected to respond in the same way, you’re a bigot.
I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone do this. (Hint: sex, race, religion, etc., aren’t arbitrary categories).
Well, it’s not like all member of the same sex/race/religion/etc. behave the same way or think the same way or can be expected to respond in the same way, either.
What definition of “bigotry” are you using? The “standard definition” amounts to “applying Bayesian priors to people”. So is discussion of the policy implications of Bayesian reasoning now punishable by banning without notice? Also since you admit that he didn’t actually make the proposal but was “close to suggesting” it does that mean that even being “close to suggesting” implications of Bayesian reasoning for policy is bannable?
Note to Eliezer or any super-administrators reading this: I strongly suggest that in the interest of keeping LessWrong a place where people can discuss rationality without fear of suddenly being banned, NancyLebovitz’s administrative privileges be revoked immediately.
Huh, no it doesn’t.
Lots of people had expressed annoyance at advandcedatheist talking about the same topic over and over again. That’s hardly “sudden”. (OTOH I would have preferred him to be officially warned by a moderator before being banned.)
The leap from annoyance to a ban was quite sudden.
Ok, looking at the first result we get:
Which was the standard meaning of “bigotry” a century ago. Ok, let’s apply this definition to the current situation: it would appear that NancyLebowitz is more guilty of bigotry then AA. Does that mean she should be banned?
Again, ISTM NancyLebovitz (and other LW readers in general) are less intolerant of AA’s ideas themselves than of his continuing to post them over and over again after people have made abundantly clear they’re not interested in reading them for the zillionth time, so a response to an extraordinary situation and not a “habitual” state of mind. And AA does seem intolerant of the idea of women’s sexual freedom.
That said, I’ll tap out now.
Then Nancy should ban him based on his habit of repetitively posting, rather than what she actually banned him for, which is for “bigoted policy proposals” (and worse yet, for just almost making bigoted policy proposals). Banning him for that makes it much more dangerous for me to support limits on immigration, say almost anything concrete about how to use IQ tests that falls on the wrong side, connect vegetarianism to abortion, give many answers to the trolley problem, or otherwise speak about a lot of topics that turn up in discussions that have nothing to do with AA.
I wouldn’t actually have a problem with the ban if she banned him for repetitively posting.
That’s some terrible priors you have there.
Well, would you care to enlighten us as to your definition of “bigotry”. Bonus if the definition refers to something obviously bad and something AA was guilty of.
If you focus on labels instead of on individuals, you’re a bigot.
If your treatment of people is based on tribal allegiances, real or imagined, instead of what they’ve actually done, you’re a bigot.
If you already have an opinion on someone you’ve just met, based on appearances only, before you’ve bothered getting to know them, you’re a bigot.
If you blame an entire category of people for the actions of select outliers, you’re a bigot.
If you believe all members of an arbitrarily defined category of people behave the same way or think the same way or can be expected to respond in the same way, you’re a bigot.
If there’s a group of people you especially like to hate, you’re a bigot.
If you’re an identity essentialist, you’re a bigot.
If you believe there are “superior” and “inferior” classes of people, you’re an über bigot.
Hello! I’m a bigot! Pleased to meet you!
I’m guessing you disapprove of some of the things polymathwannabe lists, much as PMWB does, but think others are fine. It might be more interesting to know which.
I disapprove of assigning labels on the basis of checklists to start with, the same labels that polymathwannabe professes to dislike in his first sentence.
Any particular reason you ask? I’m not a big fan of purity/political correctness/ideological orientation tests either. Got to focus on the individual, y’know.. :-P
I can’t see why you’d have posted as you did if you didn’t want to (1) point out what you see as deficiencies in PMWB’s list of alleged features of bigots and/or (2) tell us something about yourself; but what you’ve said so far doesn’t provide enough information to identify the alleged deficiencies or determine much about you. So it seems like you haven’t done what you intended to.
Also, I’m curious.
But I did: see the grandparent post. I just went one meta level up.
I also generally dislike the “people who believe are ” lists.
Anyway, sorry, I’m not going to go down the list and jot down my attitude towards each point. It looks like a waste of time.
On that we agree.
Anybody who treats family members such as cousins differently because they are family is a bigot?
Look at all the effective altruism and utilitarian arguments that basically imply that you should consider the welfare of all people in the world equally and that putting more weight on yourself, your family, and people who are close to you or who resemble you is just not something that rational people are supposed to be doing.
And then they get called bigots, and then bigots get banned....
My aunts resent me for this, but you guessed right: I do not hold the accident of genetic closeness alone as a valid reason for preferential treatment. To quote Gabriel García Márquez,
That’s not the point of the question*. The question is whether anybody who doesn’t see things that way is a bigot.
*: Unless of course you define being a bigot as having different preference than you have.
In itself, treating your relatives nicely because they’re family doesn’t seem to sound too bad; it sounds like the obvious and natural thing everybody would do. The problem I have with it is that it means you’re intentionally treating everybody else less nicely because they’re not family, which to me is a very weak reason to withhold your good will. When taken to the field of real-life decisions, it takes the form of nepotism, which can be seen as bigotry against the entire rest of humanity.
How is that even relevant? I don’t see anything about genetic closeness up there. I do see a reference to family, which is not the same thing and can easily include people with “friendship formed”.
This is what Baysian logic requires that you do.
I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone do this. (Hint: sex, race, religion, etc., aren’t arbitrary categories).
I have murderers and child-molesters.
Ok, now define “identity essentialism”, I’m have a hard time coming up with a definition that’s not largely true.
Does it matter if this is actually true for the metric under discussion.
Only for such a broad value of “opinion” that Bayesian logic requires you to have an opinion about the number of apples in a tree you haven’t seen.
I take it you never interact with people you haven’t interacted with before.
Sometimes I do, but then I update my beliefs about them based on the evidence (or at least I try to—I’m not a Platonic spherical perfectly rational being). In any event, even with people I haven’t interacted with before I usually have more information than “appearances only”, e.g. where we are, who introduced us to each other, and whether I have already heard of them before.
Assuming someone introduced you and this isn’t someone you’re passing on the street.
I was assuming that by “interact” in the great-grandparent you meant more substantive stuff than passing each other on the street. If you weren’t, my point still stands: Bayesian logic requires one to have an opinion about strangers passing in the street, but only in the way it requires one to have an opinion about the triple point pressure of copper.
And hope they don’t mug you as you do, for starters.
I somehow doubt that “opinion” in “If you already have an opinion on someone you’ve just met, based on appearances only, before you’ve bothered getting to know them” was meant to include stuff as vague as “they’re probably not going to mug me”, but whatevs—tapping out.
Why should I care about having opinions (in the regular sense of the word, not in the sense of probability distributions other than maximum entropy) about people I’m just passing on the street?
Well, it’s not like all member of the same sex/race/religion/etc. behave the same way or think the same way or can be expected to respond in the same way, either.
Not all, but most and their responses can be more similar than you’d think.
How do you know how similar I’d think their responses can be?
Religion does sound pretty arbitrary to me.
There you go.
Ok, except this definition makes “identity essentialism” true.
Evidence?
Don’t be silly.