One of the problem’s with Rao’s Gervais principle that I later realized(that I think Zvi’s sequence shares to some degree) is that it doesn’t distinguish between Kegan 4.5 Sociopaths, and Kegan 5 leaders. This creates the impossible choice between having freedom as a loser, meaning as a clueless, or influence as as a sociopath, pick one.
Similarly, Zvi’s sequence gives the choice of truth as a simulacra 1, belonging as Simulacra 2, and influence as Simulacra 4.
Neither framing admits that it’s possible to get to a stage of leadership in which you can fluidly cycle between variations of the 3 modes.
Thanks, I think this helps me see what I find slightly off about both, and also Zvi’s writing on “moral mazes”.
In all three cases, it’s acting as if the frames and roles people feel themselves to be trapped in are the ground reality, rather than a way of being those people are choosing to take on. They present models that seem to claim a complete description, but fail to realize that even if they are complete descriptions it’s possible to pull back and see people and statements and roles to be in multiple states at once, or for parts of the model to be under or over specified such that stuff gets lumped together that should be split apart.
My takeaway was that awareness of all levels is necessary if you want to reliably remain on level 1 (make sure that you don’t trigger responses for levels 2-4 by crafting statements that have no salient interpretations at levels 2-4). So both the problem and the solution involve reading statements at multiple levels.
(The innovation is in how this heuristic is more principled/general than things like “don’t talk about politics or religion”. You might even manage to talk about politics and religion without triggering levels 2-4.)
Is this a problem for the theory, or a problem for human participants in society that the theory exposes? I suspect that people of varying capability do have this conundrum—it may not be a pure choice they make, but the paths they take will lead them to less-than-perfect situations and interactions.
But The Gervais Principle is a model of a tv show, not directly of reality. I haven’t seen the particular show, but most tv shows are not trying to model reality, but reflect it, and distorting it is fair and even expected. There’s an argument to be made that the distortions are what makes it interesting.
I think Rao is clearly trying to take a model from the show and present it as saying something meaningful about the world we live in and not just the world of the show.
Yes, I agree with that. Of course it’s meaningful! It wouldn’t be a reflection of reality if it wasn’t. But meaningful isn’t the same as complete or undistorted.
For example, I think it’s meaningful (maybe not the most insightful thing that could possibly be said, but meaningful) to talk about the original Star Trek in terms of head, heart, and gut as reflected in the characters of Spock, McCoy, and Kirk. I don’t think this covers everything that Star Trek is, or everything that those characters are, or everything that real people can be, but it’s an interesting pattern (and from there one can have some fun considering felt senses and gut feelings, because so often people use an even simpler model and just contrast head and heart, so I think it’s fun to consider the gut as Captain).
I saw The Gervais Principle as a way of looking at the show and at those aspects of reality that are reflected in the show (I read the whole thing for the reflections of reality, not the show analysis), and an interesting one, but not necessarily intended to be complete to every possibility (especially possibilities not explored in the show) or even...I mean, I’d have to read it again, but just as real people aren’t only one of head heart gut, in terms of The Gervais Principle, I thought there was some simplification going on, but I can’t actually remember if I thought the categories were more like personality types (which are usually a continuum), or like cultures, or like roles that one is forced into and then forced to act according to. I remember aspects of all of these, actually.
(Taken from a comment)
One of the problem’s with Rao’s Gervais principle that I later realized(that I think Zvi’s sequence shares to some degree) is that it doesn’t distinguish between Kegan 4.5 Sociopaths, and Kegan 5 leaders. This creates the impossible choice between having freedom as a loser, meaning as a clueless, or influence as as a sociopath, pick one.
Similarly, Zvi’s sequence gives the choice of truth as a simulacra 1, belonging as Simulacra 2, and influence as Simulacra 4.
Neither framing admits that it’s possible to get to a stage of leadership in which you can fluidly cycle between variations of the 3 modes.
Thanks, I think this helps me see what I find slightly off about both, and also Zvi’s writing on “moral mazes”.
In all three cases, it’s acting as if the frames and roles people feel themselves to be trapped in are the ground reality, rather than a way of being those people are choosing to take on. They present models that seem to claim a complete description, but fail to realize that even if they are complete descriptions it’s possible to pull back and see people and statements and roles to be in multiple states at once, or for parts of the model to be under or over specified such that stuff gets lumped together that should be split apart.
The simulacra levels are not mutually exclusive, a given statement should be interpreted at all four levels simultaneously:
Level 1 (facts): What does the statement claim about the world?
Level 2 (deception): What actions does belief in the statement’s truth incite?
Level 3 (identity): Which groups does uttering this statement serve as evidence for belonging to?
Level 4 (consequences): What goals does uttering this statement serve?
Yes, and I think this is largely missing or distorted in the sequence.
I think the post that gets closest to really truly recognizing this is “Simulacra levels and their interactions”
My takeaway was that awareness of all levels is necessary if you want to reliably remain on level 1 (make sure that you don’t trigger responses for levels 2-4 by crafting statements that have no salient interpretations at levels 2-4). So both the problem and the solution involve reading statements at multiple levels.
(The innovation is in how this heuristic is more principled/general than things like “don’t talk about politics or religion”. You might even manage to talk about politics and religion without triggering levels 2-4.)
Is this a problem for the theory, or a problem for human participants in society that the theory exposes? I suspect that people of varying capability do have this conundrum—it may not be a pure choice they make, but the paths they take will lead them to less-than-perfect situations and interactions.
It reveals an incompleteness in the theory.
But The Gervais Principle is a model of a tv show, not directly of reality. I haven’t seen the particular show, but most tv shows are not trying to model reality, but reflect it, and distorting it is fair and even expected. There’s an argument to be made that the distortions are what makes it interesting.
Do you see this differently?
I think Rao is clearly trying to take a model from the show and present it as saying something meaningful about the world we live in and not just the world of the show.
Yes, I agree with that. Of course it’s meaningful! It wouldn’t be a reflection of reality if it wasn’t. But meaningful isn’t the same as complete or undistorted.
For example, I think it’s meaningful (maybe not the most insightful thing that could possibly be said, but meaningful) to talk about the original Star Trek in terms of head, heart, and gut as reflected in the characters of Spock, McCoy, and Kirk. I don’t think this covers everything that Star Trek is, or everything that those characters are, or everything that real people can be, but it’s an interesting pattern (and from there one can have some fun considering felt senses and gut feelings, because so often people use an even simpler model and just contrast head and heart, so I think it’s fun to consider the gut as Captain).
I saw The Gervais Principle as a way of looking at the show and at those aspects of reality that are reflected in the show (I read the whole thing for the reflections of reality, not the show analysis), and an interesting one, but not necessarily intended to be complete to every possibility (especially possibilities not explored in the show) or even...I mean, I’d have to read it again, but just as real people aren’t only one of head heart gut, in terms of The Gervais Principle, I thought there was some simplification going on, but I can’t actually remember if I thought the categories were more like personality types (which are usually a continuum), or like cultures, or like roles that one is forced into and then forced to act according to. I remember aspects of all of these, actually.
Yeah, I think that Rao is using the Office to illustrate what he sees as a real world pattern.