i might try sleeping for a long time (16-24 hours?) by taking sublingual[1]melatonin right when i start to be awake, and falling asleep soon after. my guess: it might increase my cognitive quality on the next wake up, like this:
(or do useful computation during sleep, leading to apparently having insights on the next wakeup? long elaboration below)
i wonder if it’s even possible, or if i’d have trouble falling asleep again despite the melatonin.
i don’t see much risk to it, since my day/night cycle is already uncalibrated[2], and melatonin is naturally used for this narrow purpose in the body.
‘cognitive quality’ is really vague. here’s what i’m really imagining
my unscientific impression of sleep, from subjective experience (though i only experience the result) and speculation i’ve read, is that it does these things:
integrates into memory what happened in the previous wake period, and maybe to a lesser extent further previous ones
more separate to the previous wake period, acts on my intuitions or beliefs about things to ‘reconcile’ or ‘compute implicated intuitions’. for example if i was trying to reconcile two ideas, or solve some confusing logical problem, maybe the next day i would find it easier because more background computation has been done about it?
maybe the same kind of background cognition that happens during the day, that leads to people having ideas random-feelingly enter their awareness?
this is the one i feel like i have some sub-linguistic understanding of how it works in me, and it seems like the more important of the two for abstract problem solving, which memories don’t really matter to. for this reason, a higher proportion of sleep or near-sleep in general may be useful for problem solving.
but maybe these are not done almost as much as they could be, because of competing selection pressures for different things, of which sleep-time computations are just some. (being awake is useful to gather food and survive)
anyways, i imagine that after those happening for a longer time, the waking mental state could be very ‘fresh’ / aka more unburdened by previous thoughts/experiences (bulletpoint 1), and prone to creativity/‘apparently’ having new insights (bulletpoint 2). (there is something it feels like to be in such a state for me, and it happens more just after waking)
You know Harry’s non-24 sleep disorder? I have that. Normally my days are around 24 hours and 30 minutes long.
Around a year ago, some friends of mine cofounded MetaMed, intended to provide high-grade analysis of the medical literature for people with solution-resistant medical problems. (I.e. their people know Bayesian statistics and don’t automatically believe every paper that claims to be ‘statistically significant’ – in a world where only 20-30% of studies replicate, they not only search the literature, but try to figure out what’s actually true.) MetaMed offered to demonstrate by tackling the problem of my ever-advancing sleep cycle.
Here’s some of the things I’ve previously tried:
Taking low-dose melatonin 1-2 hours before bedtime
Using timed-release melatonin
Installing red lights (blue light tells your brain not to start making melatonin)
Using blue-blocking sunglasses after sunset
Wearing earplugs
Using a sleep mask
Watching the sunrise
Watching the sunset
Blocking out all light from the windows in my bedroom using aluminum foil, then lining the door-edges with foam to prevent light from slipping in the cracks, so I wouldn’t have to use a sleep mask
Spending a total of ~$2200 on three different mattresses (I cannot afford the high-end stuff, so I tried several mid-end ones)
Trying 4 different pillows, including memory foam, and finally settling on a folded picnic blanket stuffed into a pillowcase (everything else was too thick)
Putting 2 humidifiers in my room, a warm humidifier and a cold humidifier, in case dryness was causing my nose to stuff up and thereby diminish sleep quality
Buying an auto-adjusting CPAP machine for $650 off Craigslist in case I had sleep apnea. ($650 is half the price of the sleep study required to determine if you need a CPAP machine.)
Taking modafinil and R-modafinil.
Buying a gradual-light-intensity-increasing, sun alarm clock for ~$150
Not all of this was futile – I kept the darkened room, the humidifiers, the red lights, the earplugs, and one of the mattresses; and continued taking the low-dose and time-release melatonin. But that didn’t prevent my sleep cycle from advancing 3 hours per week (until my bedtime was after sunrise, whereupon I would lose several days to staying awake until sunset, after which my sleep cycle began slowly advancing again).
MetaMed produced a long summary of extant research on non-24 sleep disorder, which I skimmed, and concluded by saying that – based on how the nadir of body temperature varies for people with non-24 sleep disorder and what this implied about my circadian rhythm – their best suggestion, although it had little or no clinical backing, was that I should take my low-dose melatonin 5-7 hours before bedtime, instead of 1-2 hours, a recommendation which I’d never heard anywhere before.
And it worked.
I can’t *#&$ing believe that #*$%ing worked.
(EDIT in response to reader questions: “Low-dose” melatonin is 200microgram (mcg) = 0.2 mg. Currently I’m taking 0.2mg 5.5hr in advance, and taking 1mg timed-release just before closing my eyes to sleep. However, I worked up to that over time – I started out just taking 0.3mg total, and I would recommend to anyone else that they start at 0.2mg.)
Heh, I’ve gone the opposite way and now do 3h sleep per 12h-days. The aim is to wake up during REM/light-sleep at the end of the 2nd sleep cycle, but I don’t have a clever way of measuring this[1] except regular sleep-&-wake-times within the range of what the brain can naturally adapt its cycles to.
I think the objective should be to maximize the integral of cognitive readiness over time,[2] so here are some considerations (sorry for lack of sources; feel free to google/gpt; also also sorry for sorta redundant here, but I didn’t wish to spend time paring it down):
Restorative effects of sleep have diminishing marginal returns
I think a large reason we sleep is that metabolic waste-clearance is more efficiently batch-processed, because optimal conditions for waste-clearance are way different from optimal conditions for cognition (and substantial switching-costs between, as indicated by how difficult it can be to actually start sleeping). And this differentially takes place during deep sleep.
Proportion of REM-sleep in a cycle increases per cycle, with a commensurate decrease in deep sleep (SWS).
Two unsourced illustrations I found in my notes:
Note how N3 (deep sleep) drops off fairly drastically after 3 hours (~2 full sleep cycles).
REM & SWS do different things, and I like the things SWS do more
Eg acetylcholine levels (ACh) are high during REM & awake, and low during SWS. ACh functions as a switch between consolidation & encoding of new memories.[3] Ergo REM is for exploring/generalizing novel patterns, and SWS is for consolidating/filtering them.
REM seems to differentially improve procedural memories, whereas SWS more for declarative memories.
(And who cares about procedural memories anyway. :p)
(My most-recent-pet-hunch is that ACh is required for integrating new episodic memories into hippocampal theta waves (via the theta-generating Medial Septum in the Cholinergic Basal Forebrain playing ‘conductor’ for the hippocampus), which is why you can’t remember anything from deep sleep, and why drugs that inhibit ACh also prevent encoding new memories.)
So in summary, two (comparatively minor) reasons I like polyphasic short sleep is:
SWS differentially improves declarative over procedural memories.
Early cycles have proportionally more SWS.
Ergo more frequent shorter sleep sessions will maximize the proportion of sleep that goes to consolidation of declarative memories.
Note: I think the exploratory value of REM-sleep is fairly limited, just based on the personal observation that I mostly tend to dream about pleasant social situations, and much less about topics related to conceptual progress. I can explore much more efficiently while I’m awake.
Also, because I figure my REM-dreams are so socially-focused, I think more of it risks marginally aligning my daily motivations with myopically impressing others, at the cost of motivations aimed at more abstract/illegible/longterm goals.
(Although I would change my mind if only I could manage to dream of Maria more, since trying to impress her is much more aligned with our-best-guess about what saves the world compared to anything else.)
And because diminishing marginal returns to sleep-duration, and assuming cognition is best in the morning (anecdotally true), I maximize high-quality cognition by just… having more mornings preceded by what-best-I-can-tell-is-near-optimal-sleep (ceiling effect).
Lastly, just anecdotally, having two waking-sessions per 24h honestly just feels like I have ~twice the number of days in a week in terms of productivity. This is much more convincing to me than the above.
Starting mornings correctly seems to be incredibly important, and some of the effect of those good morning-starts dissipate the longer I spend awake. Mornings work especially well as hooks/cues for starting effective routines, sorta like a blank slate[4] you can fill in however I want if I can get the cues in before anything else has time to hijack the day’s cognition/motivations.
My mood is harder to control/predict in evenings due to compounding butterfly effects over the course of a day, and fewer natural contexts I can hook into with the right course-corrections before the day ends.
PedanticallyTechnically, we want to maximize brain-usefwlness over time, which in this case would be the integral of [[the distribution cognitive readiness over time] pointwise multiplied by [the distribution of brain-usefwlness over cognitive readiness]].
This matters if, for example, you get disproportionately more usefwlness from the peaks of cognitive readiness, in which case you might want to sacrifice more median wake-time in order to get marginally more peak-time.
I assume this is what your suggested strategy tries to do. However, I doubt it actually works, due to diminishing returns to marginal sleep time (and, I suspect,
“Blank slate” I think caused by eg flushing neurotransmitters out of synaptic clefts (and maybe glucose and other mobile things), basically rebooting attentional selection-history, and thereby reducing recent momentum for whatever’s influenced you short-term.
A lot of people e.g. Andrew Huberman (who recommends many supplements for cognitive enhancement and other ends) recommend against supplementing melatonin except to treat insomnia that has failed to respond to many other interventions.
The CNS contains dozens of “feedback loops”. Any intervention that drastically alters the equilibrium point of several of those loops is generally a bad idea unless you are doing it to get out of some dire situation, e.g., seizures. That’s my recollection of Huberman’s main objection put into my words (because I dont recall his words).
Supplementing melatonin is fairly unlikely to have (much of) a permanent effect on the CNS, but you can waste a lot of time by temporarily messing up CNS function for the duration of the melatonin supplementation (because a person cannot make much progress in life with even a minor amount of messed-up CNS function).
A secondary consideration is that melatonin is expensive to measure quantitatively, so the amount tends to vary a lot from what is on the label. In particular, there are reputational consequences and possible legal consequences to a brand’s having been found to have less than the label says, so brands tend to err on the side of putting too much melatonin in per pill, which ends up often being manyfold more than the label says.
There are many better ways to regularize the sleep rhythm. My favorite is ensuring I get almost no light at night (e.g., having foil on the windows of the room I sleep in) but then get the right kind of light in the morning, which entails understanding how light affects the intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells and how those cells influence the circadian rhythm. In fact, I’m running my screens (computer screen and iPad screen) in grayscale all day long to prevent yellow-blue contrasts on the screen from possibly affecting my circadian rhythm. I also use magnesium and theanine according to a complex protocol of my own devising.
i might try sleeping for a long time (16-24 hours?) by taking sublingual[1] melatonin right when i start to be awake, and falling asleep soon after. my guess: it might increase my cognitive quality on the next wake up, like this:
(or do useful computation during sleep, leading to apparently having insights on the next wakeup? long elaboration below)
i wonder if it’s even possible, or if i’d have trouble falling asleep again despite the melatonin.
i don’t see much risk to it, since my day/night cycle is already uncalibrated[2], and melatonin is naturally used for this narrow purpose in the body.
‘cognitive quality’ is really vague. here’s what i’m really imagining
my unscientific impression of sleep, from subjective experience (though i only experience the result) and speculation i’ve read, is that it does these things:
integrates into memory what happened in the previous wake period, and maybe to a lesser extent further previous ones
more separate to the previous wake period, acts on my intuitions or beliefs about things to ‘reconcile’ or ‘compute implicated intuitions’. for example if i was trying to reconcile two ideas, or solve some confusing logical problem, maybe the next day i would find it easier because more background computation has been done about it?
maybe the same kind of background cognition that happens during the day, that leads to people having ideas random-feelingly enter their awareness?
this is the one i feel like i have some sub-linguistic understanding of how it works in me, and it seems like the more important of the two for abstract problem solving, which memories don’t really matter to. for this reason, a higher proportion of sleep or near-sleep in general may be useful for problem solving.
but maybe these are not done almost as much as they could be, because of competing selection pressures for different things, of which sleep-time computations are just some. (being awake is useful to gather food and survive)
anyways, i imagine that after those happening for a longer time, the waking mental state could be very ‘fresh’ / aka more unburdened by previous thoughts/experiences (bulletpoint 1), and prone to creativity/‘apparently’ having new insights (bulletpoint 2). (there is something it feels like to be in such a state for me, and it happens more just after waking)
takes effect sooner
i have the non-24 hour sleep/wake cycle that harry has in HPMOR. for anyone who also does, some resources:
from authors note chapter 98:
other resources: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/, https://www.reddit.com/r/N24/comments/fylcmm/useful_links_n24_faq_and_software/
I predict this won’t work as well as you hope because you’ll be fighting the circadian effect that partially influences your cognitive performance.
Also, some ways to maximize your sleep quality are too exercise very intensely and/or to sauna, the day before.
Heh, I’ve gone the opposite way and now do 3h sleep per 12h-days. The aim is to wake up during REM/light-sleep at the end of the 2nd sleep cycle, but I don’t have a clever way of measuring this[1] except regular sleep-&-wake-times within the range of what the brain can naturally adapt its cycles to.
I think the objective should be to maximize the integral of cognitive readiness over time,[2] so here are some considerations (sorry for lack of sources; feel free to google/gpt; also also sorry for sorta redundant here, but I didn’t wish to spend time paring it down):
Restorative effects of sleep have diminishing marginal returns
I think a large reason we sleep is that metabolic waste-clearance is more efficiently batch-processed, because optimal conditions for waste-clearance are way different from optimal conditions for cognition (and substantial switching-costs between, as indicated by how difficult it can be to actually start sleeping). And this differentially takes place during deep sleep.
Eg interstitial space expands by ~<60% and the brain is flooded to flush out metabolic waste/debris via the glymphatic system.
Proportion of REM-sleep in a cycle increases per cycle, with a commensurate decrease in deep sleep (SWS).
Two unsourced illustrations I found in my notes:
Note how N3 (deep sleep) drops off fairly drastically after 3 hours (~2 full sleep cycles).
REM & SWS do different things, and I like the things SWS do more
Eg acetylcholine levels (ACh) are high during REM & awake, and low during SWS. ACh functions as a switch between consolidation & encoding of new memories.[3] Ergo REM is for exploring/generalizing novel patterns, and SWS is for consolidating/filtering them.
See also acetylcholine = learning-rate.
REM seems to differentially improve procedural memories, whereas SWS more for declarative memories.
(And who cares about procedural memories anyway. :p)
(My most-recent-pet-hunch is that ACh is required for integrating new episodic memories into hippocampal theta waves (via the theta-generating Medial Septum in the Cholinergic Basal Forebrain playing ‘conductor’ for the hippocampus), which is why you can’t remember anything from deep sleep, and why drugs that inhibit ACh also prevent encoding new memories.)
So in summary, two (comparatively minor) reasons I like polyphasic short sleep is:
SWS differentially improves declarative over procedural memories.
Early cycles have proportionally more SWS.
Ergo more frequent shorter sleep sessions will maximize the proportion of sleep that goes to consolidation of declarative memories.
Note: I think the exploratory value of REM-sleep is fairly limited, just based on the personal observation that I mostly tend to dream about pleasant social situations, and much less about topics related to conceptual progress. I can explore much more efficiently while I’m awake.
Also, because I figure my REM-dreams are so socially-focused, I think more of it risks marginally aligning my daily motivations with myopically impressing others, at the cost of motivations aimed at more abstract/illegible/longterm goals.
(Although I would change my mind if only I could manage to dream of Maria more, since trying to impress her is much more aligned with our-best-guess about what saves the world compared to anything else.)
And because diminishing marginal returns to sleep-duration, and assuming cognition is best in the morning (anecdotally true), I maximize high-quality cognition by just… having more mornings preceded by what-best-I-can-tell-is-near-optimal-sleep (ceiling effect).
Lastly, just anecdotally, having two waking-sessions per 24h honestly just feels like I have ~twice the number of days in a week in terms of productivity. This is much more convincing to me than the above.
Starting mornings correctly seems to be incredibly important, and some of the effect of those good morning-starts dissipate the longer I spend awake. Mornings work especially well as hooks/cues for starting effective routines, sorta like a blank slate[4] you can fill in however I want if I can get the cues in before anything else has time to hijack the day’s cognition/motivations.
See my (outdated-but-still-maybe-inspirational) my morning routine.
My mood is harder to control/predict in evenings due to compounding butterfly effects over the course of a day, and fewer natural contexts I can hook into with the right course-corrections before the day ends.
Although waking up with morning-wood is some evidence of REM, but I don’t know how reliable that is. ^^
PedanticallyTechnically, we want to maximize brain-usefwlness over time, which in this case would be the integral of [[the distribution cognitive readiness over time] pointwise multiplied by [the distribution of brain-usefwlness over cognitive readiness]].This matters if, for example, you get disproportionately more usefwlness from the peaks of cognitive readiness, in which case you might want to sacrifice more median wake-time in order to get marginally more peak-time.
I assume this is what your suggested strategy tries to do. However, I doubt it actually works, due to diminishing returns to marginal sleep time (and, I suspect,
> “Our findings support the notion that ACh acts as a switch between modes of acquisition and consolidation.” (2006)
> “Acetylcholine Mediates Dynamic Switching Between Information Coding Schemes in Neuronal Networks” (2019)
“Blank slate” I think caused by eg flushing neurotransmitters out of synaptic clefts (and maybe glucose and other mobile things), basically rebooting attentional selection-history, and thereby reducing recent momentum for whatever’s influenced you short-term.
A lot of people e.g. Andrew Huberman (who recommends many supplements for cognitive enhancement and other ends) recommend against supplementing melatonin except to treat insomnia that has failed to respond to many other interventions.
why?
i searched
Andrew Huberman melatoninand found this, though it looks like it may be an AI generated summary.The CNS contains dozens of “feedback loops”. Any intervention that drastically alters the equilibrium point of several of those loops is generally a bad idea unless you are doing it to get out of some dire situation, e.g., seizures. That’s my recollection of Huberman’s main objection put into my words (because I dont recall his words).
Supplementing melatonin is fairly unlikely to have (much of) a permanent effect on the CNS, but you can waste a lot of time by temporarily messing up CNS function for the duration of the melatonin supplementation (because a person cannot make much progress in life with even a minor amount of messed-up CNS function).
A secondary consideration is that melatonin is expensive to measure quantitatively, so the amount tends to vary a lot from what is on the label. In particular, there are reputational consequences and possible legal consequences to a brand’s having been found to have less than the label says, so brands tend to err on the side of putting too much melatonin in per pill, which ends up often being manyfold more than the label says.
There are many better ways to regularize the sleep rhythm. My favorite is ensuring I get almost no light at night (e.g., having foil on the windows of the room I sleep in) but then get the right kind of light in the morning, which entails understanding how light affects the intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells and how those cells influence the circadian rhythm. In fact, I’m running my screens (computer screen and iPad screen) in grayscale all day long to prevent yellow-blue contrasts on the screen from possibly affecting my circadian rhythm. I also use magnesium and theanine according to a complex protocol of my own devising.