Yes, there is a lot of hostility to religion here. Folks here are into “rationality”, and they have somehow gotten the impression that much religious thinking is irrational. “Somehow gotten the impression”. Ok, lets be honest here. They got that impression because a lot of religious thinking really is irrational. You will have a tough job convincing folks here that your own religious thinking is any different. So, I think that “Just lay low” is pretty good advice. There is a lot to be learned here, stuff about how to think clearly and about why we don’t always think as clearly as we would like to. So, I bet it will do you, Saladin, some good to stick around. But I don’t think you will get much useful feedback regarding your thinking about a deity or eternal first cause. There are probably better places on the web for that.
There are probably better places on the web for that.
That’s an interesting question, actually. I would have been inclined to agree—I agree that a lot of religious thinking is irrational—but when I tried to think of places to send people, most of them are communities like the FRDB. These are not precisely dispassionate.
No, I don’t, though Googling is always worth a try. Using search strings containing words like discussion, theology, agnostic, first cause, and apologetics, I found a variety of resources and communities in which at least the spelling, grammar, and punctuation were tolerable.
In trying to work your way through these kinds of questions, you obviously need to avoid sites where a consensus exists that “The truth is already known”. But, I suspect that you also need to avoid getting too deeply emersed in communities like this one where the consensus is that “The way to the truth is known”. In my experience, people who believe they know the way are even more passionate, evangelical, and just plain impolite than are the self-satisfied folk who think they have already arrived at the truth.
Which, of course, is not to say that passionate impolite evangelists are not worth listening to occasionally.
In my experience, people who believe they know the way are even more passionate, evangelical, and just plain impolite than are the self-satisfied folk who think they have already arrived at the truth.
I would recommend totally eliminating your impressions of “the kind of people who think X” from your considerations about X, unless the X-ites are actually torturing babies.
By paying attention to their personal characteristics, you’re essentially guaranteeing that your opinions will be hijacked by how socially comfortable you feel with their group, which has nothing to do with truth. New agers are great people to hang out with, very… undogmatic, but I wouldn’t recommend swallowing any of their truth claims.
Oh, I agree. I am busy evaluating exactly that. But I will point out that a large fraction of the techniques taught here have to do with how to communicate clearly, rather than simply how to think clearly. One presumes that the reason we wish to communicate is that we wish to be understood. If certain “personal characteristics” (I mentioned passion and etiquette) either promote or interfere with successful communication, then I think that both sender and receiver have some responsibility to make adjustments. In fact, in a broadcast model, with one sender and many receivers, the onus of adjustment lies mainly on the sender.
[Edit: spelling]
I will point out that a large fraction of the techniques taught here have to do with how to communicate clearly, rather than simply how to think clearly.
Really? A quick survey of recent posts suggests that we care a lot more about thinking than communication.
To the extent that communicating clearly affects one’s explicit verbal reasoning with oneself, the two are not at odds. Understanding why using words with excessively strong connotations is a cheap move in an argument will also help you understand why it’s a bad mode of thinking.
I was raised a believer and I never thought about it being irrational or not until I met the creationist crowd. After debating enough of them, mainly over the internet, I was appaled at their ignorance and butchering of science for some IDiotic predetermined conclusion. I still believe, but I certainly respect the atheists for trying to be rational.
I have heard some pretty convincing evidence of stuff in the bible, but after meeting the creationists I had to think twice as to whether that is objective or not. I was going to go do some research on it and never got around to it because I’m lazy.
I was going to go do some research on it and never got around to it because I’m lazy.
Most people in a crisis of faith find themselves especially lazy when it comes to seeking information that contradicts their (preferred) beliefs, and surprisingly diligent when it comes to seeking evidence that reaffirms them.
(This isn’t just about religion, but it happens pretty clearly there. A religious friend of mine recently went through a crisis of faith, decided that he needed to study more to decide on the truth of Christianity, and only read books by traditional Christians until I convinced him to add a few more, only one of which he read. I believe you can guess as easily as I did how his crisis turned out.)
Yes, there is a lot of hostility to religion here. Folks here are into “rationality”, and they have somehow gotten the impression that much religious thinking is irrational. “Somehow gotten the impression”. Ok, lets be honest here. They got that impression because a lot of religious thinking really is irrational. You will have a tough job convincing folks here that your own religious thinking is any different. So, I think that “Just lay low” is pretty good advice. There is a lot to be learned here, stuff about how to think clearly and about why we don’t always think as clearly as we would like to. So, I bet it will do you, Saladin, some good to stick around. But I don’t think you will get much useful feedback regarding your thinking about a deity or eternal first cause. There are probably better places on the web for that.
That’s an interesting question, actually. I would have been inclined to agree—I agree that a lot of religious thinking is irrational—but when I tried to think of places to send people, most of them are communities like the FRDB. These are not precisely dispassionate.
Did you have an Internet community in mind?
No, I don’t, though Googling is always worth a try. Using search strings containing words like discussion, theology, agnostic, first cause, and apologetics, I found a variety of resources and communities in which at least the spelling, grammar, and punctuation were tolerable.
In trying to work your way through these kinds of questions, you obviously need to avoid sites where a consensus exists that “The truth is already known”. But, I suspect that you also need to avoid getting too deeply emersed in communities like this one where the consensus is that “The way to the truth is known”. In my experience, people who believe they know the way are even more passionate, evangelical, and just plain impolite than are the self-satisfied folk who think they have already arrived at the truth. Which, of course, is not to say that passionate impolite evangelists are not worth listening to occasionally.
I would recommend totally eliminating your impressions of “the kind of people who think X” from your considerations about X, unless the X-ites are actually torturing babies.
By paying attention to their personal characteristics, you’re essentially guaranteeing that your opinions will be hijacked by how socially comfortable you feel with their group, which has nothing to do with truth. New agers are great people to hang out with, very… undogmatic, but I wouldn’t recommend swallowing any of their truth claims.
If LW thinks it knows the Way to the Truth, then the thing to evaluate is what exactly our way is, and why we think it leads to the truth.
Oh, I agree. I am busy evaluating exactly that. But I will point out that a large fraction of the techniques taught here have to do with how to communicate clearly, rather than simply how to think clearly. One presumes that the reason we wish to communicate is that we wish to be understood. If certain “personal characteristics” (I mentioned passion and etiquette) either promote or interfere with successful communication, then I think that both sender and receiver have some responsibility to make adjustments. In fact, in a broadcast model, with one sender and many receivers, the onus of adjustment lies mainly on the sender. [Edit: spelling]
Aha. Agreed, in that case; the onus is on us.
Really? A quick survey of recent posts suggests that we care a lot more about thinking than communication.
To the extent that communicating clearly affects one’s explicit verbal reasoning with oneself, the two are not at odds. Understanding why using words with excessively strong connotations is a cheap move in an argument will also help you understand why it’s a bad mode of thinking.
I was raised a believer and I never thought about it being irrational or not until I met the creationist crowd. After debating enough of them, mainly over the internet, I was appaled at their ignorance and butchering of science for some IDiotic predetermined conclusion. I still believe, but I certainly respect the atheists for trying to be rational. I have heard some pretty convincing evidence of stuff in the bible, but after meeting the creationists I had to think twice as to whether that is objective or not. I was going to go do some research on it and never got around to it because I’m lazy.
Most people in a crisis of faith find themselves especially lazy when it comes to seeking information that contradicts their (preferred) beliefs, and surprisingly diligent when it comes to seeking evidence that reaffirms them.
(This isn’t just about religion, but it happens pretty clearly there. A religious friend of mine recently went through a crisis of faith, decided that he needed to study more to decide on the truth of Christianity, and only read books by traditional Christians until I convinced him to add a few more, only one of which he read. I believe you can guess as easily as I did how his crisis turned out.)