I saw that post earlier and I think I largely agree with it. Consider that quoted assertion retracted: education in social skills may be an ethical way to systematically reduce inequalities of romantic and sexual opportunity. I’m not without my criticisms of the seduction community, but discovering and documenting processes that allow people to become genuinely more attractive is praiseworthy.
Tangentially, while women seem to be better at acquiring social skills on average, I think most people underestimate how many of them would be interested in a PUA-like program, if it were presented in the right way. (Which is to say, not how the PUA community represents itself to men. Different social norms and all.)
Tangentially, while women seem to be better at acquiring social skills on average, I think most people underestimate how many of them would be interested in a PUA-like program, if it were presented in the right way.
Why? Women already have their PUA act together. They understand very clearly that physical beauty is the key factor in attracting men, and have a huge industry for creating fake physical beauty.
In general, I think it’s a gross mistake for men to think women “have it easier”. I would guesstimate that the typical woman spends a way bigger share of her time and money on being attractive to the opposite sex than the typical man. They’re more aware of the game, they start playing it earlier, they coach each other all the time… no wonder they win! As a male, I was able to increase my attractiveness hugely as soon as I realized this was worth making a serious effort: say, the equivalent of one workday (8 hours) per week in total. From what I’ve seen, most men can’t be bothered to spend even that much, while most women are conditioned to spend more than that.
As a male, I was able to increase my attractiveness hugely as soon as I realized this was worth making a serious effort: say, the equivalent of one workday (8 hours) per week in total. From what I’ve seen, most men can’t be bothered to spend even that much, while most women are conditioned to spend more than that.
For many men their actual work days are to some degree part of a serious effort to be attractive to women. The ‘traditional’ advice to become attractive to women is to develop a good, stable career, achieve a degree of material success and maintain reasonable health, fitness and appearance. The fact that it is not terribly effective advice on its own doesn’t mean that lots of men don’t put a good deal of effort into following it.
Your proposed theory implies a nice testable prediction and a nice policy recommendation: men should make better worker bees on average, and we should pay them more. Haha, oh wait.
The difference between “women” and “most women” is vast. Some men benefit much more from PUA than others, and those men have some characteristics in common. There are women with those characteristics who I suspect would benefit from a PUA-like program in the same way that men do. But perhaps not; I’m not much of an expert on the seduction community.
You’re committing the typical mistake that I will call symmetrism: thinking that men and women have mostly equivalent roles in mating, may benefit from similar advice, etc. This is an easy mistake to make because men aren’t all that different from women in many other areas. But mating is special: it is the whole goddamn reason why we have these concepts of “males” and “females”, so by default you should expect huge differences instead of equality!
From this perspective it’s pretty easy to dissect your comment. PUA is an attempt to honestly formulate what attracts women. If you wanna have the female equivalent of PUA, you need to formulate what attracts men. Honestly, is that hard? Men are attracted to youth and physical beauty. Gee, I wish women had some kind of industry that supplied that to them… Oh wait.
However, you seem to be confusing tactics with strategy. For women, maximizing physical attractiveness will clearly result in an immediate tactical advantage, but it won’t magically make their strategy sound, especially in the long term. And in this regard, there is certainly lots of deluded and clueless behavior by women going on, and good advice is hard to find and drowned in a sea of nonsense.
PUA is an attempt to honestly formulate what attracts women. If you wanna have the female equivalent of PUA, you need to formulate what attracts men. Honestly, is that hard? Men are attracted to youth and physical beauty.
That’s far from all we’re attracted to… there’s also what some folks refer to as “feminine radiance”—the female counterpart of male confidence or presence, though it’s quite different in form. (For example, it involves a lot more smiling.)
I’ve seen women with this quality draw crowds, even if they’re not that young or beautiful-looking (when they’re not smiling).
And I would imagine this is a quality that can be taught, just as men can be taught to have increased confidence and presence.
Yep, I know exactly what you’re talking about because I met several women like that and I try to learn from them whenever I can. In a more fair and just world, this feminine quality would attract men more than “mere” beauty. But it doesn’t. Not even for me; it makes for a pleasant bonus afterward, but it’s not really enough to outweigh bad looks up front.
This state of affairs is quite sad and I’m actually trying to change it, modify myself to like “radiant” girls more than pretty girls, because I feel this is the right thing to do. Both for them and for me.
I’ve seen women with this quality draw crowds, even if they’re not that young or beautiful-looking (when they’re not smiling).
Your parenthetical makes it sound like the effect is transient, perhaps even under control. How sharp is the effect? What do you think of the story about Marilyn Monroe? (original source)
From this perspective it’s pretty easy to dissect your comment. PUA is an attempt to honestly formulate what attracts [most] women. If you wanna have the female equivalent of PUA, you need to formulate what attracts [most] men. Honestly, is that hard? [Most] Men are attracted to youth and physical beauty. Gee, I wish women had some kind of industry that supplied that to them… Oh wait.
One of the reasons that I’m not interested in PUA is that (most of) the community sees trends and thinks they are laws. The women who I imagine could benefit from a PUA-style program are the ones who want to attract men that are interested in more than youth and physical beauty, but don’t know how to present themselves as interesting because most of the dating advice they get completely ignores that factor. I know that these women exist because I am dating one and friends with others.
Generalization can be a useful tool, but not when you’re specifically looking at a subset of the group.
I think that you and cousin it are both right, but using different definitions of the word “attraction.” He seems to be using it to mean specifically sexual attraction, such as arousal. Since male sexual attraction seems primarily related to looks, women indeed have plenty of advice for fulfilling that preference. You seem to be using attraction in a broader sense, to describe not just desirability on a sexual level, but desirability as a partner. For components of partner desirability other than raw sexual attraction (e.g. relationship desirability), women may need just as much help as men, and benefit from approaches similar to PUAs.
For instance, PUAs discourage showing overt insecurity to potential mates. The theory is that insecurity lowers female attraction to males on a sexual level. Now, while insecurity probably doesn’t lower male sexual attraction to women, it probably does lower women’s desirability on a platonic level to many men, so women could still benefit from PUA-style advice for avoiding displays of insecurity (e.g. avoiding “qualifying oneself”).
I’ve dated a couple women who constantly put themselves down, and while it didn’t change my sexual attraction to them one bit, it did lower their desirability as a longer-term partner (so you could say that it lowered my “attraction” to them, in the broader sense of attraction).
A lot of pickup discourse includes advice other than sexual attractiveness, such as:
avoiding insecurity
creating and facilitating connections
frame control (i.e. managing who’s epistemology is running the interaction, and making sure that you are at least an equal partner in the assignment of meanings to things)
telegraphing your expectations and desires about where you want things to go
status (probably not quite so important for women, but acting dramatically lower status than a guy will often lead to not being taken seriously as relationship material)
systematic practice, and being honest about oneself about your results, capabilities, and areas in need of improvement
Since male sexual attraction seems primarily related to looks, women indeed have plenty of advice for fulfilling that preference. You seem to be using attraction in a broader sense, to describe not just desirability on a sexual level, but desirability as a partner. For components of partner desirability other than raw sexual attraction (e.g. relationship desirability), women may need just as much help as men, and benefit from approaches similar to PUAs.
And even for sexual attraction, there are PUA-like approaches that would help women attract men: for instance, knowing how to approach a guy, flirt with him, tease him, and make sexually suggestive comments that make him interested.
Thank you. Those are exactly the sorts of advice I was thinking of, and you’re entirely correct about the broader sense in which I was using “attraction” (though, incidentally, I find that displays of insecurity are a turn-off).
What makes you think a PUA-like program would help the subset of women you’re talking about? Do you think the men they’re interested in are woman-like in some respect, so the same techniques would work on them? I can’t understand your argument, maybe I’m misreading it.
A PUA-like program (i.e., one that focuses on improving social skills) would help the subset of women who are interested in attracting the subset of men who place a high value on social skills.
Do you think the men they’re interested in are woman-like in some respect, so the same techniques would work on them?
Do you believe that there are some traits that are quintessentially female?
The interesting aspects of attraction are the psychological ones. You’re oversimplifying male attraction if you think it’s all about youth and beauty: what makes men attracted to women who aren’t young and beautiful sometimes? What makes a man commit if he has other options of equivalent youth and beauty? Psychological and mental attraction are relevant here as well. Some of the techniques are similar for men as well as women (showing scarcity, for instance, is fairly universal), while others may be different for women.
I don’t have anything to add, I just wanted to jump on the indignation bandwagon.
How dare you say such a thing, you terrorist! Whenever someone says that men don’t already get the assistance toward attraction that women do, I feel like 9/11 happened all over again.
As a male, I was able to increase my attractiveness hugely as soon as I realized this was worth making a serious effort: say, the equivalent of one workday (8 hours) per week in total.
Where are you spending your 8 hours? Are we talking about haircuts, shoes, tans, skin care, and cosmetic muscles—or about verbal and psychological PUA-Game?
They understand very clearly that physical beauty is the key factor in attracting men, and have a huge industry for creating fake physical beauty.
What do you mean by fake? I personally find most forms of female makeup, cosmetic surgery, high heels, etc. unattractive, but I find it difficult to understand how appearance-modification can be fake. Isn’t all appearance an inherently unreliable signal as to core content? I mean, if for some absurd reason I were thinking of marrying someone who I didn’t trust, and I wanted to know if she were (say) in good long-term health, I wouldn’t just check to see if she had nice long hair and clear skin—I would ask to see her medical records and her parents’ medical records.
When a woman does take steps to make her skin appear clearer, I don’t take this as a way of fooling or faking me into thinking that she has an unusually good immune system—I see it as a way of satisfying her superficial urge to look pretty and my superficial urge to date someone who looks pretty. And, basically, I’m OK with that. I don’t see it as fake, because, assuming it’s done right she actually does look prettier. There’s nothing going on here that’s both fake and relevant. Obviously she might look different when she wakes up in the morning than when she goes out clubbing, but it takes an unusually naive person not to quickly figure that sort of thing out and adjust for it.
I mostly spend my time experimenting with body language and face expressions to make a higher percentage of random women feel instant attraction. Think “smiling across the room”. No haircuts or tans, but also almost no verbal game and no “inner game”. YMMV.
You seem to have assumed that I used “fake” as a synonym for “bad” and immediately rushed to defend… uh… something you thought you should defend. I see this reaction often, and it troubles me.
I mostly spend my time experimenting with body language and face expressions to make a higher percentage of random women feel instant attraction. Think “smiling across the room”. No haircuts or tans, but also almost no verbal game and no “inner game”. YMMV.
Could I get more details on how you do this? Are you talking about a Marlon Brando-esque smile/smirk? 8 hours a week just for body language and facial expressions without accompanying conversation seems like a lot. Do you also practice conversation with them? What happens when they do feel attraction?
I tend to mostly focus on conversation, but this is probably something I should work on.
I go to crowded clubs, move around and try to interact with as many people as I can. (Two nights a week is more than 8 hours.) Catch someone’s attention, approach, do what makes sense, repeat. I do end up having many conversations but don’t think of this as “verbal game”, because talking never seems to tip the odds in my favor if they weren’t good to begin with. The first five seconds of nonverbal interaction allow me to predict with exceptional accuracy whether that person will be attracted to me. Maybe I’m doing “verbal game” wrong, though. Or maybe my initial prediction actually has causal power and influences my “verbal game” in subtle ways :-)
You seem to have assumed that I used “fake” as a synonym for “bad”
I hope not! I’m genuinely curious what you mean by fake. Even in a context devoid of moral judgments, “fake” seems like a natural antonym of “natural” or “real,” and both of those words seem unreasonably vague to me for effective communication. The only coherent, tight definition of “fake” that I can imagine right now is “a false signal,” as in, “that rattlesnake’s bright yellow patterning is fake; it’s not really poisonous.” I find that most people don’t mean “false signal” when they say fake, though, so I’m trying to find out what you mean by it. Maybe you know another tight definition and you can teach me about it.
As for being defensive, well, yes, that’s a character flaw of mine. Please let me know if you have any specific advice for overcoming it beyond “be more inclined to assume the best of people,” and I will carefully consider it.
I saw that post earlier and I think I largely agree with it. Consider that quoted assertion retracted: education in social skills may be an ethical way to systematically reduce inequalities of romantic and sexual opportunity. I’m not without my criticisms of the seduction community, but discovering and documenting processes that allow people to become genuinely more attractive is praiseworthy.
Tangentially, while women seem to be better at acquiring social skills on average, I think most people underestimate how many of them would be interested in a PUA-like program, if it were presented in the right way. (Which is to say, not how the PUA community represents itself to men. Different social norms and all.)
Why? Women already have their PUA act together. They understand very clearly that physical beauty is the key factor in attracting men, and have a huge industry for creating fake physical beauty.
In general, I think it’s a gross mistake for men to think women “have it easier”. I would guesstimate that the typical woman spends a way bigger share of her time and money on being attractive to the opposite sex than the typical man. They’re more aware of the game, they start playing it earlier, they coach each other all the time… no wonder they win! As a male, I was able to increase my attractiveness hugely as soon as I realized this was worth making a serious effort: say, the equivalent of one workday (8 hours) per week in total. From what I’ve seen, most men can’t be bothered to spend even that much, while most women are conditioned to spend more than that.
For many men their actual work days are to some degree part of a serious effort to be attractive to women. The ‘traditional’ advice to become attractive to women is to develop a good, stable career, achieve a degree of material success and maintain reasonable health, fitness and appearance. The fact that it is not terribly effective advice on its own doesn’t mean that lots of men don’t put a good deal of effort into following it.
Your proposed theory implies a nice testable prediction and a nice policy recommendation: men should make better worker bees on average, and we should pay them more. Haha, oh wait.
The difference between “women” and “most women” is vast. Some men benefit much more from PUA than others, and those men have some characteristics in common. There are women with those characteristics who I suspect would benefit from a PUA-like program in the same way that men do. But perhaps not; I’m not much of an expert on the seduction community.
You’re committing the typical mistake that I will call symmetrism: thinking that men and women have mostly equivalent roles in mating, may benefit from similar advice, etc. This is an easy mistake to make because men aren’t all that different from women in many other areas. But mating is special: it is the whole goddamn reason why we have these concepts of “males” and “females”, so by default you should expect huge differences instead of equality!
From this perspective it’s pretty easy to dissect your comment. PUA is an attempt to honestly formulate what attracts women. If you wanna have the female equivalent of PUA, you need to formulate what attracts men. Honestly, is that hard? Men are attracted to youth and physical beauty. Gee, I wish women had some kind of industry that supplied that to them… Oh wait.
However, you seem to be confusing tactics with strategy. For women, maximizing physical attractiveness will clearly result in an immediate tactical advantage, but it won’t magically make their strategy sound, especially in the long term. And in this regard, there is certainly lots of deluded and clueless behavior by women going on, and good advice is hard to find and drowned in a sea of nonsense.
That’s far from all we’re attracted to… there’s also what some folks refer to as “feminine radiance”—the female counterpart of male confidence or presence, though it’s quite different in form. (For example, it involves a lot more smiling.)
I’ve seen women with this quality draw crowds, even if they’re not that young or beautiful-looking (when they’re not smiling).
And I would imagine this is a quality that can be taught, just as men can be taught to have increased confidence and presence.
Yep, I know exactly what you’re talking about because I met several women like that and I try to learn from them whenever I can. In a more fair and just world, this feminine quality would attract men more than “mere” beauty. But it doesn’t. Not even for me; it makes for a pleasant bonus afterward, but it’s not really enough to outweigh bad looks up front.
This state of affairs is quite sad and I’m actually trying to change it, modify myself to like “radiant” girls more than pretty girls, because I feel this is the right thing to do. Both for them and for me.
Your parenthetical makes it sound like the effect is transient, perhaps even under control. How sharp is the effect? What do you think of the story about Marilyn Monroe? (original source)
One of the reasons that I’m not interested in PUA is that (most of) the community sees trends and thinks they are laws. The women who I imagine could benefit from a PUA-style program are the ones who want to attract men that are interested in more than youth and physical beauty, but don’t know how to present themselves as interesting because most of the dating advice they get completely ignores that factor. I know that these women exist because I am dating one and friends with others.
Generalization can be a useful tool, but not when you’re specifically looking at a subset of the group.
ETA: I would also agree with Vladimir’s objection.
I think that you and cousin it are both right, but using different definitions of the word “attraction.” He seems to be using it to mean specifically sexual attraction, such as arousal. Since male sexual attraction seems primarily related to looks, women indeed have plenty of advice for fulfilling that preference. You seem to be using attraction in a broader sense, to describe not just desirability on a sexual level, but desirability as a partner. For components of partner desirability other than raw sexual attraction (e.g. relationship desirability), women may need just as much help as men, and benefit from approaches similar to PUAs.
For instance, PUAs discourage showing overt insecurity to potential mates. The theory is that insecurity lowers female attraction to males on a sexual level. Now, while insecurity probably doesn’t lower male sexual attraction to women, it probably does lower women’s desirability on a platonic level to many men, so women could still benefit from PUA-style advice for avoiding displays of insecurity (e.g. avoiding “qualifying oneself”).
I’ve dated a couple women who constantly put themselves down, and while it didn’t change my sexual attraction to them one bit, it did lower their desirability as a longer-term partner (so you could say that it lowered my “attraction” to them, in the broader sense of attraction).
A lot of pickup discourse includes advice other than sexual attractiveness, such as:
avoiding insecurity
creating and facilitating connections
frame control (i.e. managing who’s epistemology is running the interaction, and making sure that you are at least an equal partner in the assignment of meanings to things)
telegraphing your expectations and desires about where you want things to go
status (probably not quite so important for women, but acting dramatically lower status than a guy will often lead to not being taken seriously as relationship material)
systematic practice, and being honest about oneself about your results, capabilities, and areas in need of improvement
And even for sexual attraction, there are PUA-like approaches that would help women attract men: for instance, knowing how to approach a guy, flirt with him, tease him, and make sexually suggestive comments that make him interested.
Thank you. Those are exactly the sorts of advice I was thinking of, and you’re entirely correct about the broader sense in which I was using “attraction” (though, incidentally, I find that displays of insecurity are a turn-off).
What makes you think a PUA-like program would help the subset of women you’re talking about? Do you think the men they’re interested in are woman-like in some respect, so the same techniques would work on them? I can’t understand your argument, maybe I’m misreading it.
A PUA-like program (i.e., one that focuses on improving social skills) would help the subset of women who are interested in attracting the subset of men who place a high value on social skills.
Do you believe that there are some traits that are quintessentially female?
The interesting aspects of attraction are the psychological ones. You’re oversimplifying male attraction if you think it’s all about youth and beauty: what makes men attracted to women who aren’t young and beautiful sometimes? What makes a man commit if he has other options of equivalent youth and beauty? Psychological and mental attraction are relevant here as well. Some of the techniques are similar for men as well as women (showing scarcity, for instance, is fairly universal), while others may be different for women.
I think that a lot of the difference in views is due to some people using broader or narrower definition of “attraction.”
I don’t have anything to add, I just wanted to jump on the indignation bandwagon.
How dare you say such a thing, you terrorist! Whenever someone says that men don’t already get the assistance toward attraction that women do, I feel like 9/11 happened all over again.
Where are you spending your 8 hours? Are we talking about haircuts, shoes, tans, skin care, and cosmetic muscles—or about verbal and psychological PUA-Game?
What do you mean by fake? I personally find most forms of female makeup, cosmetic surgery, high heels, etc. unattractive, but I find it difficult to understand how appearance-modification can be fake. Isn’t all appearance an inherently unreliable signal as to core content? I mean, if for some absurd reason I were thinking of marrying someone who I didn’t trust, and I wanted to know if she were (say) in good long-term health, I wouldn’t just check to see if she had nice long hair and clear skin—I would ask to see her medical records and her parents’ medical records.
When a woman does take steps to make her skin appear clearer, I don’t take this as a way of fooling or faking me into thinking that she has an unusually good immune system—I see it as a way of satisfying her superficial urge to look pretty and my superficial urge to date someone who looks pretty. And, basically, I’m OK with that. I don’t see it as fake, because, assuming it’s done right she actually does look prettier. There’s nothing going on here that’s both fake and relevant. Obviously she might look different when she wakes up in the morning than when she goes out clubbing, but it takes an unusually naive person not to quickly figure that sort of thing out and adjust for it.
I mostly spend my time experimenting with body language and face expressions to make a higher percentage of random women feel instant attraction. Think “smiling across the room”. No haircuts or tans, but also almost no verbal game and no “inner game”. YMMV.
You seem to have assumed that I used “fake” as a synonym for “bad” and immediately rushed to defend… uh… something you thought you should defend. I see this reaction often, and it troubles me.
Could I get more details on how you do this? Are you talking about a Marlon Brando-esque smile/smirk? 8 hours a week just for body language and facial expressions without accompanying conversation seems like a lot. Do you also practice conversation with them? What happens when they do feel attraction?
I tend to mostly focus on conversation, but this is probably something I should work on.
I go to crowded clubs, move around and try to interact with as many people as I can. (Two nights a week is more than 8 hours.) Catch someone’s attention, approach, do what makes sense, repeat. I do end up having many conversations but don’t think of this as “verbal game”, because talking never seems to tip the odds in my favor if they weren’t good to begin with. The first five seconds of nonverbal interaction allow me to predict with exceptional accuracy whether that person will be attracted to me. Maybe I’m doing “verbal game” wrong, though. Or maybe my initial prediction actually has causal power and influences my “verbal game” in subtle ways :-)
I hope not! I’m genuinely curious what you mean by fake. Even in a context devoid of moral judgments, “fake” seems like a natural antonym of “natural” or “real,” and both of those words seem unreasonably vague to me for effective communication. The only coherent, tight definition of “fake” that I can imagine right now is “a false signal,” as in, “that rattlesnake’s bright yellow patterning is fake; it’s not really poisonous.” I find that most people don’t mean “false signal” when they say fake, though, so I’m trying to find out what you mean by it. Maybe you know another tight definition and you can teach me about it.
As for being defensive, well, yes, that’s a character flaw of mine. Please let me know if you have any specific advice for overcoming it beyond “be more inclined to assume the best of people,” and I will carefully consider it.