I don’t even know the question. The OP’s comparison with religious faith serves no clear purpose; the whole post seems more like an advertisement than an immediately useful suggestion. Compare and contrast this post.
I do appreciate the request for more clarity of purpose and useful suggestion.
I think that there is quite a lot that is implicit if you are reading this from an open rather than defensive perspective. However, I am in agreement that I could be much more explicit and that this would be of benefit. Rather than giving an off the cuff response, I will think this through and craft something more useful. Thanks!
I think that there is quite a lot that is implicit if you are reading this from an open rather than defensive perspective.
One thing that I have noticed—as a general rule—is that, in any debate, no two debaters will ever agree on what is implicit in any argument. Anything that needs to be said, that forms an important part of the desired point, pretty much has to be stated explicitly, or most of the readers will fail to notice it.
Or, to put it another way; I, too, agree that your post would be much improved if you were a lot more explicit about precisely what you meant.
Voted up for “One thing that I have noticed—as a general rule—is that, in any debate, no two debaters will ever agree on what is implicit in any argument.”.
Funny, I opened that post expecting something very logical and to the point, and was immediately surprised that it read like a long advertisement for CFAR :)
Yes. I will come back to this and fill in the missing piece, as I said to hairyfigment when they brought it to my attention.
To me the conclusion is obvious, but I can see how it is not to people who are not me, now that this has been pointed out to me. I want to take my time to figure out how to word it properly, and have been very busy with work. I will be getting to it either later tonight or tomorrow.
That said, I personally find it laughable that hairyfigment linked a piece that is clearly advertising propaganda IMHO after claiming that my post sounded like advertisement. Perhaps if I call myself an executive director this would not bother people? :) I had better be careful or I’m going to get this post entirely deleted… ;)
It’s not clear to me—I’m not even sure what you think it’s advertising!
( ETA: I wrote a bunch of irrelevant stuff, but then I scrolled up and saw (again, but it somehow slipped my mind even though I friggin’ quoted it in the grandparent, I’m going senile at the tender age of 36) that you specifically think it’s advertising for CFAR, so I’ve deleted the irrelevant stuff. )
Advertising for CFAR seems like a stretch, because—although very nice things are said about Anna Salamon—the actual product CFAR sells isn’t mentioned at all.
Is the intended point simply that people have more confidence in their beliefs than would be optimal? People should change their assumptions more often and see what happens?
One of several. I wrote a couple of others here. In retrospect, it is a very good point that I was writing my thoughts more than writing to a specific conclusion, and that I made a writing error in not specifying an action oriented conclusion.
I want to add one in, but since there are actually several different points I’m making in the article, I need to think it through and decide which to include or not in the official conclusion.
I somewhat wish I could help many people on this site learn to be a lot nicer about pointing these things out, as you have been here. However, as they would say to me, it is my choice to post on this site, and thus to the degree I’m here, I it behooves me to play by, or at least tolerate, the cultural rules.
To me, I was being nice and empathizing with the point made. This feels like I expressed vulnerability and you decided to sink your teeth in and/or rub my nose in shit to tell me what I’ve done wrong, except I don’t actually understand what you’re even trying to show me.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be so abrasive. It’s just that communication is, practically by definition, communication with people who are not oneself. It seemed to me that you were surprised to come up against this.
As for the original post itself, it seems to me, as it has to some others who have commented, that it talks around something that sounds like it might be interesting, but never says the thing itself.
I just saw this, sorry about the delay in response.
Yes, I was surprised by the response, because my assumptions about other people’s assumptions were wrong in this case.
I do of course understand that no one else has the same mental model I do—my mistake was in that I did not model correctly quite how different my mental models are from the majority of Less Wrong readers on this topic.
Given the hostility of the responses I received in response to my attempt to share something I find valuable, I’m really not inclined to keep going.
Yes, I did make a mistake, but I do not feel an obligation to keep paying and paying for it to ungrateful people… why would I want to teach them anything?
It is work to better articulate—to figure out what the difference is between our models and be able to name it in a way that the group can understand.
I do not feel that I have adequate reason at this point in time to make that investment of my time and energy, when the only payment is contempt and ridicule.
I don’t even know the question. The OP’s comparison with religious faith serves no clear purpose; the whole post seems more like an advertisement than an immediately useful suggestion. Compare and contrast this post.
The summary has been added, thank you for the suggestion.
I do appreciate the request for more clarity of purpose and useful suggestion.
I think that there is quite a lot that is implicit if you are reading this from an open rather than defensive perspective. However, I am in agreement that I could be much more explicit and that this would be of benefit. Rather than giving an off the cuff response, I will think this through and craft something more useful. Thanks!
One thing that I have noticed—as a general rule—is that, in any debate, no two debaters will ever agree on what is implicit in any argument. Anything that needs to be said, that forms an important part of the desired point, pretty much has to be stated explicitly, or most of the readers will fail to notice it.
Or, to put it another way; I, too, agree that your post would be much improved if you were a lot more explicit about precisely what you meant.
Voted up for “One thing that I have noticed—as a general rule—is that, in any debate, no two debaters will ever agree on what is implicit in any argument.”.
Funny, I opened that post expecting something very logical and to the point, and was immediately surprised that it read like a long advertisement for CFAR :)
...containing an immediately useful (or at least, immediately practicable) suggestion, as, er, advertised.
Yes. I will come back to this and fill in the missing piece, as I said to hairyfigment when they brought it to my attention.
To me the conclusion is obvious, but I can see how it is not to people who are not me, now that this has been pointed out to me. I want to take my time to figure out how to word it properly, and have been very busy with work. I will be getting to it either later tonight or tomorrow.
That said, I personally find it laughable that hairyfigment linked a piece that is clearly advertising propaganda IMHO after claiming that my post sounded like advertisement. Perhaps if I call myself an executive director this would not bother people? :) I had better be careful or I’m going to get this post entirely deleted… ;)
It’s not clear to me—I’m not even sure what you think it’s advertising!
( ETA: I wrote a bunch of irrelevant stuff, but then I scrolled up and saw (again, but it somehow slipped my mind even though I friggin’ quoted it in the grandparent, I’m going senile at the tender age of 36) that you specifically think it’s advertising for CFAR, so I’ve deleted the irrelevant stuff. )
Advertising for CFAR seems like a stretch, because—although very nice things are said about Anna Salamon—the actual product CFAR sells isn’t mentioned at all.
Is the intended point simply that people have more confidence in their beliefs than would be optimal? People should change their assumptions more often and see what happens?
One of several. I wrote a couple of others here. In retrospect, it is a very good point that I was writing my thoughts more than writing to a specific conclusion, and that I made a writing error in not specifying an action oriented conclusion.
I want to add one in, but since there are actually several different points I’m making in the article, I need to think it through and decide which to include or not in the official conclusion.
I somewhat wish I could help many people on this site learn to be a lot nicer about pointing these things out, as you have been here. However, as they would say to me, it is my choice to post on this site, and thus to the degree I’m here, I it behooves me to play by, or at least tolerate, the cultural rules.
Well then, I would like to point out a more general fact.
Everyone that you will ever deal with, in any way, is someone who is not you.
Umm… why does this need to be pointed out?
To me, I was being nice and empathizing with the point made. This feels like I expressed vulnerability and you decided to sink your teeth in and/or rub my nose in shit to tell me what I’ve done wrong, except I don’t actually understand what you’re even trying to show me.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be so abrasive. It’s just that communication is, practically by definition, communication with people who are not oneself. It seemed to me that you were surprised to come up against this.
As for the original post itself, it seems to me, as it has to some others who have commented, that it talks around something that sounds like it might be interesting, but never says the thing itself.
Hi Richard,
I just saw this, sorry about the delay in response.
Yes, I was surprised by the response, because my assumptions about other people’s assumptions were wrong in this case.
I do of course understand that no one else has the same mental model I do—my mistake was in that I did not model correctly quite how different my mental models are from the majority of Less Wrong readers on this topic.
Given the hostility of the responses I received in response to my attempt to share something I find valuable, I’m really not inclined to keep going.
Yes, I did make a mistake, but I do not feel an obligation to keep paying and paying for it to ungrateful people… why would I want to teach them anything?
It is work to better articulate—to figure out what the difference is between our models and be able to name it in a way that the group can understand.
I do not feel that I have adequate reason at this point in time to make that investment of my time and energy, when the only payment is contempt and ridicule.