Well how do you know there has been a reduction in anti-Semitism?
You can observe that Jews have an easier time getting jobs in industries that used to discriminate against them, that Jews tend not to get lynched any more, etc.
You can observe that Jews have an easier time getting jobs in industries that used to discriminate against them, that Jews tend not to get lynched any more, etc.
That doesn’t mean anything, since, by hypotheses, progressive anti-Semitism manifests itself in different ways.
Let me ask you this:
If someone is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would you guess that such a person generally subscribes to progressive viewpoints or not?
That doesn’t mean anything, since, by hypotheses, progressive anti-Semitism manifests itself in different ways.
By hypothesis, progressive anti-Semitism is verbalized in different ways. The things I described weren’t verbal.
If someone is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would you guess that such a person generally subscribes to progressive viewpoints or not?
If someone loudly says “I am against policies which prohibit discrimination on the basis of religon” I would assume he subscribes to progressive viewpoints. Actually doing it would be pretty much neutral, at least in the context of Jews.
By hypothesis, progressive anti-Semitism is verbalized in different ways. The things I described weren’t verbal.
That’s an interesting distinction. Let’s break things down. First of all, do you agree that a significant part of the reason there is less discrimination against Jews (at least in the United States), is because society has become less tolerant of discrimination on the basis of race, religion, age, etc.?
If someone loudly says “I am against policies which prohibit discrimination on the basis of religon” I would assume he subscribes to progressive viewpoints. Actually doing it would be pretty much neutral, at least in the context of Jews.
Actually doing what? All I asked about was the hypothetical person’s beliefs.
Just so we are clear, you are saying that if a person is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, it gives you little or no information on the probabilities that he holds modern progressive political views?
First of all, do you agree that a significant part of the reason there is less discrimination against Jews (at least in the United States), is because society has become less tolerant of discrimination on the basis of race, religion, age, etc.?
There are several factors which operate in different directions for Jews. There’s a larger increase in tolerance among the left and a smaller increase in tolerance among the right which is progressive and is for religion in general, but there’s also a decrease in tolerance among the left and an increase among the right specifically for Jews. Add them together and the results are still positive for both the left and the right, but can no longer be called progressive
.Just so we are clear, you are saying that if a person is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, it gives you little or no information on the probabilities that he holds modern progressive political views?
Policies which prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion in general are associated with progressive views. Policies which specifically prohibit discrimination against Jews but not religion in general aren’t.
There are several factors which operate in different directions for Jews. There’s a larger increase in tolerance among the left and a smaller increase in tolerance among the right which is progressive and is for religion in general, but there’s also a decrease in tolerance among the left and an increase among the right specifically for Jews.
Umm, does that mean “yes” or “no”?
Policies which prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion in general are associated with progressive views. Policies which specifically prohibit discrimination against Jews but not religion in general aren’t.
Ok let’s make this a little more concrete with an example: A WASPY country-club is having an internal debate over whether to admit Jews to membership. One club member takes the position that the country club should let Jews join; another members states that the club should continue to exclude Jews. According to you, this information tells you little or nothing about which of the two members is more likely to have progressive political views. Right?
ETA: By the way, if you object that membership in such a country club affects the chances that one will have modern progressive political views, you can imagine that it’s two members of the community who may or may not belong to the country club. One believes that the club should start admitting Jews; one believes that the club should continue to exclude Jews.
That not the only relevant question. Let’s say someone named Rothschild runs for a congress primary. There are people from whom that’s enough to choose to vote against that person. Those people aren’t necessarily politically on the right.
Even when I personally wouldn’t call it anti-semitism there are plenty of people on the left who want to boycot Israel economically after the example of South Africa. On the other hand someone like Mencius Moldbug is quite all right with Israel.
Political correctness leads to a lot of things not being said and the historical reasons for why someone might be take a political position are complicated.
That not the only relevant question. Let’s say someone named Rothschild runs for a congress primary. There are people from whom that’s enough to choose to vote against that person. Those people aren’t necessarily politically on the right.
I’m not sure that “Rothschild” is the best example here since the name is far more evocative of extreme wealth than of religion. But let’s suppose that someone named “Shapiro” or “Cohen” is running for Congress. Would that automatically disqualify him for people on the Left? For the most part, I would say “clearly not.” If he supports the traditional Leftist positions, it won’t be a problem.
Even when I personally wouldn’t call it anti-semitism there are plenty of people on the left who want to boycot Israel economically after the example of South Africa. On the other hand someone like Mencius Moldbug is quite all right with Israel.
And a desire to boycott Israel is indeed consistent with modern progressive politics, agreed?
I’m not sure that “Rothschild” is the best example here since the name is far more evocative of extreme wealth than of religion.
Are you really saying that judging someone that way isn’t a form of antisemitism?
On of Hitlers main talking points against Jewish was that the big evil Jewish bankers control the world economy and have to be fought. People like the Rothschilds. That talking point was one of the essential elements of antisemitism.
I had the experience talking with someone about Jeffrey Sachs and that person immeditaly going for an ad hominem based on the name. There a point where it’s simply clear that one’s confronted with antisemitism.
“I’m no racist, but...”
And a desire to boycott Israel is indeed consistent with modern progressive politics, agreed?
Yes, people like Naomi Klein are progressives in good standing.
Are you really saying that judging someone that way isn’t a form of antisemitism?
Don’t let your culturally trained pattern-matching go astray. Judging people for being extremely wealthy is not per se antisemitic. Only judging people for being extremely wealthy jews (while being okay with extremely wealthy non-jews) is.
If I know that someone’s lastname is Rothshield I don’t even know that the person is wealthy. I’m effectively judging them by actions of their ancestors.
Yes, but that is entirely orthogonal to the question of whether it’s antisemitism. brazil’s point was merely that “Rothschild” brings to mind excessive riches more saliently than it brings to mind Judaism, and so any judgment of that may not be genuinely antisemitic.
70 years ago it would have brought up rich Jewish bankers with political power.
Things happened and you don’t speak about rich powerful Jewish bankers. Now it might not bring up the same image anymore, does that mean it was antisemitic 70 years ago but isn’t antisemitic today?
If it brought up rich Jewish bankers 70 years ago and only brings up rich bankers now, it’s obviously less antisemitic now than it used to be. But in any case, you cannot use the name “Rothschild” to make the point that a Jewish person would have a disadvantage in an election—you could at most make the point that someone whose name brings to mind rich Jewis people might have a disadvantage. I think this is more properly construed as the basis of brazil’s original objection.
Being Akashi Jewish is a racial category that has something to do with who your ancestors happen to be. If someone is named Rothshield that suggest at least partly Akashi Jewish ancestry.
People who descriminate against Jewish people often don’t care whether the person is practicing Judaism but more about their ancestery.
Being Akashi Jewish is a racial category that has something to do with who your ancestors happen to be. If someone is named Rothshield that suggest at least partly Akashi Jewish ancestry.
Sure, and if someone is named Rothschild, it also suggests that they come from wealth. It doesn’t mean they are wealthy and it doesn’t mean they are Jewish.
By the way, I think the word you are looking for is “Ashkenazi” not “Akashi.”
Are you really saying that judging someone that way isn’t a form of antisemitism?
Not necessarily. Let me ask you this: Imagine your hypothetical left-winger who won’t vote for a Rothschild. Do you think that person would vote for a “Rockefeller”? My guess is he probably wouldn’t, but even if he would, he would probably invent some rationalization for it so he could pretend to himself and his peers that he is not an anti-Semite.
By the way, I do agree that much of the time, criticism of “Bankers” or “Wall Street Bankers” or “Elites who Control the Media” etc. is tinged with anti-Semitism, even when it comes from the Left.
It means “yes according to what you literally said, no according to what you’d have to mean for what you’re asking to make any sense”.
The reduction in discrimination against Jews has a progressive component and an anti-progressive component. So literally speaking, a “significant part of the reason there is less discrimination” is progressive. But the whole thing is not.
A WASPY country-club is having an internal debate over whether to admit Jews to membership.
Since you have specified that the club is WASPy, you are no longer asking whether someone would approve of discrimination against Jews, you’re asking if they would approve of discrimination against Jews and in favor of white Christians—a subcategory of that. It is entirely plausible that that subcategory of discrimination is more supported by the right, while discrimination against Jews in general is not
Also, the question asks if P(not progressive|discrimination) is large. Even if this is true, it would not imply that P(discrimination|not progressive) is large.
It means “yes according to what you literally said, no according to what you’d have to mean for what you’re asking to make any sense”.
The reduction in discrimination against Jews has a progressive component and an anti-progressive component. So literally speaking, a “significant part of the reason there is less discrimination” is progressive. But the whole thing is not.
I didn’t ask about the whole thing—I asked about a “significant part.” But anyway, let’s do this: Please tell me the three most prominent American industries over the last 50-years in the United States where (1) there has been a reduction in employment discrimination against Jewish people; and (2) the reduction was primarily anti-progressive in terms of its’ “component.”
Since you have specified that the club is WASPy, you are no longer asking whether someone would approve of discrimination against Jews, you’re asking if they would approve of discrimination against Jews and in favor of white Christians—a subcategory of that. It is entirely plausible that that subcategory of discrimination is more supported by the right, while discrimination against Jews in general is not
So are you saying that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
Also, the question asks if P(not progressive|discrimination) is large. Even if this is true, it would not imply that P(discrimination|not progressive) is large.
And even if that were true, it wouldn’t matter. Because the real question is which is more consistent with modern progressive political views—continuing to keep Jews out of the country club or letting them in. I take it you concede that it’s the latter?
But anyway, let’s do this: Please tell me the three most prominent American industries over the last 50-years in the United States where (1) there has been a reduction in employment discrimination against Jewish people; and (2) the reduction was primarily anti-progressive in terms of its’ “component.”
I don’t claim that there is an industry where the reduction in discrimination against Jews is primarily anti-progressive, but rather where the reduction is in approximately equal measures progressive and anti-progressive.
I don’t claim that there is an industry where the reduction in discrimination against Jews is primarily anti-progressive, but rather where the reduction is in approximately equal measures progressive and anti-progressive.
Ok, can you give me 3 examples of such industries?
Also, are you saying that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
Ok, can you give me 3 examples of such industries?
Pretty much every industry that has a lot of people who aren’t progressive.
Also, are you saying that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
Same answer as before: the answer to the literal question you asked is “yes”, but the answer to a version of it that is meaningful would be “no”. That question as you ask it has no bearing on what you’re using it to prove.
Pretty much every industry that has a lot of people who aren’t progressive.
So can you please name 3?
Same answer as before: the answer to the literal question you asked is “yes”, but the answer to a version of it that is meaningful would be “no”. That question as you ask it has no bearing on what you’re using it to prove.
Well perhaps it does and perhaps it does not, but it’s useful to understand what we agree about so as to get a bettter handle on what we disagree about.
So, just so we are clear, you agree that just looking at discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians, reduction of this type of anti-Semitism is consistent with modern progressive political views. Agreed? (And yes, I totally understand that you don’t believe that this fact rebuts your position.)
I deduce that it has decreased in many industries from the fact that it has decreased in general. This means that I know that it has decreased in more than 3 industries without being able to name 3 industries. Of course, I could name three random industries and have a high chance of being correct, but if I did so you could then complain that I had no statistics specific to each one.
I deduce that it has decreased in many industries from the fact that it has decreased in general. This means that I know that it has decreased in more than 3 industries without being able to name 3 industries
:confused: I am not just asking for industries where job discrimination against Jews has decreased. I am asking about industries where job discrimination against Jews has decreased AND according to you that reduction is roughly equal in terms of progressive and non-progressive components.
I take it you are unable to identify even one such industry?
but if I did so you could then complain that I had no statistics specific to each one.
I will accept that discrimination against Jews has decreased in pretty much every industry. But that’s not the critical issue in this exchange and you know it perfectly well. Your claim is that there exist industries where the reduction in job discrimination against Jews is roughly equal in terms of progressive and non-progressive components. I am very skeptical that any such industries exist and I would like you to name 3 AND show me your evidence that this is the case for them.
Can you even name three American industries which have had a reduction in discrimination against Jews in hiring which reduction was NOT reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians?
I will accept that discrimination against Jews has decreased in pretty much every industry. But that’s not the critical issue in this exchange and you know it perfectly well. Your claim is that there exist industries where the reduction in job discrimination against Jews is roughly equal in terms of progressive and non-progressive components.
Just like discrimination against Jews has decreased in pretty much every industry, discrimination against Jews has decreased with a non-progressive component in pretty much every industry too (except for industries that don’t have many non-progressives).
Just like discrimination against Jews has decreased in pretty much every industry, discrimination against Jews has decreased with a non-progressive component in pretty much every industry too (except for industries that don’t have many non-progressives).
Please name three such industries. If it’s “pretty much every industry,” it should be extremely easy for you.
Also, note that you claimed there exist industries where the reduction in job discrimination against Jews is roughly EQUAL in terms of progressive and non-progressive components. I am very skeptical that any such industries exist and I would like you to name 3 AND show me your evidence that this is the case for them.
Finally, can you even name three American industries which have had a reduction in discrimination against Jews in hiring which reduction was NOT reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians?
Quite likely this is the last time I will ask you for evidence or examples to back up your claim. If you continue to fail to provide them, I will conclude that you have nothing to go on besides your own wishful thinking.
Do you want me to name three with specific evidence for each industry, or without?
The evidence should support your claim, i.e. be applicable to each industry, but can be general in application.
Also, please respond to all of my questions from the last post. If you ignore them or dance around, I’m going to most likely conclude you can’t back up your claims.
The Wikipedia article on antisemitism in America lists right-wing anti-Semitic groups of the past that are disbanded nowadays (such as the Liberty Lobby), and several factors that increase left-wing anti-Semitism, such as greater anti-Semitism among blacks (who are likely to be on the left). The right is still involved in “New antisemitism”, but on an equal basis with the left.
There was also a Republican who appointed a Jewish supreme Court justice and another who nominated one unsuccessfully. I don’t think that Republicans suddenly decided it was okay to appoint Jews because of the progressive movement.
Of course, none of this is specific to an industry, but it is reasonable to conclude that anti-Semitism generally being on par between the left and right also means that it is on par between the left and right in industries. If you refuse to accept a reduction in right-wing anti-Semitism or an increase in left-wing anti-Semitism outside industries as also indicating a similar movement within industries, there’s no way I can convince you.
And the “in favor of white Christians” question is 1) not something I claimed (so asking me for examples of something I never claimed is pointless) and 2) irrelevant. “Reduced discrimination in favor of white Christians” is not necessarily progressive. “Reduced discrimination against Jews and for white Christians, because nobody should be discriminated against” might arguably be progressive, but “reduced discrimination against Jews and for white Christians, because Jews now go in the friend category instead of the enemy category” is not progressive.
The Wikipedia article on antisemitism in America lists right-wing anti-Semitic groups of the past that are disbanded nowadays (such as the Liberty Lobby), and several factors that increase left-wing anti-Semitism, such as greater anti-Semitism among blacks (who are likely to be on the left). The right is still involved in “New antisemitism”, but on an equal basis with the left.
That’s not an answer to my question—nothing here has to do with job discrimination. Besides which, blacks on the left do not necessarily adhere to modern progressive values. For example, there is a lot of opposition to gay marriage in the Black community.
There was also a Republican who appointed a Jewish supreme Court justice and another who nominated one unsuccessfully. I don’t think that Republicans suddenly decided it was okay to appoint Jews because of the progressive movement.
Not an answer to my question, and besides which, you are wrong. Republicans have been heavily influenced by the increased adherence to modern progressive values. Perhaps they are 20 or 30 years behind the Democrats, but, for example there is plenty of support among Republicans for things which came out of progressive thinking such as bans on race discrimination, rights for women etc.
Of course, none of this is specific to an industry, but it is reasonable to conclude that anti-Semitism generally being on par between the left and right also means that it is on par between the left and right in industries
Again, you fail to give specific examples. And you conflate republican with non-progressive. Which in the case of discrimination is simply false.
And the “in favor of white Christians” question is 1) not something I claimed
Yes it is. You implicitly conceded that “reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views” (Actually you tried your best to wriggle out of it but you first implied it and then did not dispute it when I told you I was assuming that your positive response was a response to my question on this point.
So now you are weaseling, i.e. pretending you said something different from what you actually said.
Anyway, you have presented essentially no evidence to support your sweeping claims about employment discrimination. You have failed to produce examples. And now you have weaseled.
I conclude that you have no evidence besides wishful thinking to support your position, which position really is quite ridiculous. Your argument has completely failed to stand up to scrutiny.
In any event, I have my own rules of debate—I don’t engage with people who won’t answer reasonable questions about their position; who refuse to provide examples; or who pretend they took a different position from what they actually took. I’m not interested in engaging people who hide their positions or weasel. So I’m adding you to my shit list.
I must wonder exactly what you expect me to use to show that something or someone isn’t progressive, then, if political affiliation is unacceptable.
You implicitly conceded that “reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views”
It’s consistent with progressive views, but those are not the only views it’s consistent with. It’s consistent with a lot of things, including other, non-progressive, views.
And that’s why I’m very careful about answering your questions: because I know you’re going to interpret them as support for or opposition to views which they don’t actually support or oppose. Confusing “consistent with” and “implies” is an elementary mistake, yet you’re so sure about it that you want to use that as a reason not to discuss anything with me at all!
I didn’t ask about the whole thing—I asked about a “significant part.”
But I brought up the example. To refute the example, you have to show that discrimination against Jews in general has gone down due to progressive thought, not just that a component of it has.
Because the real question is which is more consistent with modern progressive political views—continuing to keep Jews out of the country club or letting them in. I take it you concede that it’s the latter?
Now you’re asking about whether P(no discrimination|progressive) > P(discrimination|progressive), which is a different question. The answer to this one is also “yes to what you just literally asked”.
It’s also true that P(no discrimination|not progressive) > P(discrimination|not progressive).
To refute the example, you have to show that discrimination against Jews in general has gone down due to progressive thought, not just that a component of it has.
That may be so, but I was asking a question in order to understand and scrutinize your position. When I ask a question, and instead of just answering it you guess or imagine what argument is behind the question, and then respond to the argument and don’t answer the question, it increases the confusion and makes me suspect you are trying to dance around the issues.
Now you’re asking about whether P(no discrimination|progressive) > P(discrimination|progressive), which is a different question.
Actually not, I was asking exactly what I asked. Anyway, I take it you concede that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
When I ask a question, and instead of just answering it you guess or imagine what argument is behind the question, and then respond to the argument and don’t answer the question, it increases the confusion and makes me suspect you are trying to dance around the issues.
When you ask a question that is very peculiar as a request for information, but completely understandable as an attempt to make a fallacious argument while maintaining plausible deniability about exactly what your argument is, that increases the confusion too.
When you ask a question that is very peculiar as a request for information, but completely understandable as an attempt to make a fallacious argument while maintaining plausible deniability about exactly what your argument is, that increases the confusion too.
Perhaps, but I have not done so. Anyway, the simple way to respond to such a question and deal with the issue is to say “Yes, I agree with X but I don’t think it undermines my position for reason Y. Are you trying to make argument Z?”
:confused: The post you are responding to does not contain a question I have asked you. Besides which, it has taken a lot of patience to get answers out of you.
I assume that just now you were responding to this question:
I take it you concede that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
If someone is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would you guess that such a person generally subscribes to progressive viewpoints or not?
Given the prevalence of what Scott Alexander calls object-level thinking, I’d guess people against banning discrimination on the basis of religion are less likely to be progressivist than the rest of population in regions where said discrimination is more commonly in favour of believers against atheists than vice versa, and more likely elsewhere.
Given the prevalence of what Scott Alexander calls object-level thinking, I’d guess people against banning discrimination on the basis of religion are less likely to be progressivist than the rest of population in regions where said discrimination is more commonly in favour of believers against atheists than vice versa, and more likely elsewhere.
That may be so, but my question is more of a practical one than a theoretical one. I’m asking about the West in the 20th century, with an emphasis on the United States.
I don’t think the West, or even the United States, is as homogeneous as you appear to imply.
I wasn’t trying to imply such . . . I was just looking for a concrete answer to my question.
Turns out that believers and atheists are discriminated against in the US, presumably by different people
With that in mind, what’s your answer to the question? If you are told that there is an American who opposes policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would it make you more likely or less likely (or the same) to believe that such person holds progressive political views?
With that in mind, what’s your answer to the question? If you are told that there is an American who opposes policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would it make you more likely or less likely (or the same) to believe that such person holds progressive political views?
I dunno—averaged over all of the US, probably more likely, but I’m not sure.
You can observe that Jews have an easier time getting jobs in industries that used to discriminate against them, that Jews tend not to get lynched any more, etc.
That doesn’t mean anything, since, by hypotheses, progressive anti-Semitism manifests itself in different ways.
Let me ask you this:
If someone is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would you guess that such a person generally subscribes to progressive viewpoints or not?
By hypothesis, progressive anti-Semitism is verbalized in different ways. The things I described weren’t verbal.
If someone loudly says “I am against policies which prohibit discrimination on the basis of religon” I would assume he subscribes to progressive viewpoints. Actually doing it would be pretty much neutral, at least in the context of Jews.
That’s an interesting distinction. Let’s break things down. First of all, do you agree that a significant part of the reason there is less discrimination against Jews (at least in the United States), is because society has become less tolerant of discrimination on the basis of race, religion, age, etc.?
Actually doing what? All I asked about was the hypothetical person’s beliefs.
Just so we are clear, you are saying that if a person is against policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, it gives you little or no information on the probabilities that he holds modern progressive political views?
There are several factors which operate in different directions for Jews. There’s a larger increase in tolerance among the left and a smaller increase in tolerance among the right which is progressive and is for religion in general, but there’s also a decrease in tolerance among the left and an increase among the right specifically for Jews. Add them together and the results are still positive for both the left and the right, but can no longer be called progressive
Policies which prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion in general are associated with progressive views. Policies which specifically prohibit discrimination against Jews but not religion in general aren’t.
Umm, does that mean “yes” or “no”?
Ok let’s make this a little more concrete with an example: A WASPY country-club is having an internal debate over whether to admit Jews to membership. One club member takes the position that the country club should let Jews join; another members states that the club should continue to exclude Jews. According to you, this information tells you little or nothing about which of the two members is more likely to have progressive political views. Right?
ETA: By the way, if you object that membership in such a country club affects the chances that one will have modern progressive political views, you can imagine that it’s two members of the community who may or may not belong to the country club. One believes that the club should start admitting Jews; one believes that the club should continue to exclude Jews.
That not the only relevant question. Let’s say someone named Rothschild runs for a congress primary. There are people from whom that’s enough to choose to vote against that person. Those people aren’t necessarily politically on the right.
Even when I personally wouldn’t call it anti-semitism there are plenty of people on the left who want to boycot Israel economically after the example of South Africa. On the other hand someone like Mencius Moldbug is quite all right with Israel.
Political correctness leads to a lot of things not being said and the historical reasons for why someone might be take a political position are complicated.
I’m not sure that “Rothschild” is the best example here since the name is far more evocative of extreme wealth than of religion. But let’s suppose that someone named “Shapiro” or “Cohen” is running for Congress. Would that automatically disqualify him for people on the Left? For the most part, I would say “clearly not.” If he supports the traditional Leftist positions, it won’t be a problem.
And a desire to boycott Israel is indeed consistent with modern progressive politics, agreed?
Are you really saying that judging someone that way isn’t a form of antisemitism?
On of Hitlers main talking points against Jewish was that the big evil Jewish bankers control the world economy and have to be fought. People like the Rothschilds. That talking point was one of the essential elements of antisemitism.
I had the experience talking with someone about Jeffrey Sachs and that person immeditaly going for an ad hominem based on the name. There a point where it’s simply clear that one’s confronted with antisemitism.
“I’m no racist, but...”
Yes, people like Naomi Klein are progressives in good standing.
Don’t let your culturally trained pattern-matching go astray. Judging people for being extremely wealthy is not per se antisemitic. Only judging people for being extremely wealthy jews (while being okay with extremely wealthy non-jews) is.
If I know that someone’s lastname is Rothshield I don’t even know that the person is wealthy. I’m effectively judging them by actions of their ancestors.
Yes, but that is entirely orthogonal to the question of whether it’s antisemitism. brazil’s point was merely that “Rothschild” brings to mind excessive riches more saliently than it brings to mind Judaism, and so any judgment of that may not be genuinely antisemitic.
70 years ago it would have brought up rich Jewish bankers with political power.
Things happened and you don’t speak about rich powerful Jewish bankers. Now it might not bring up the same image anymore, does that mean it was antisemitic 70 years ago but isn’t antisemitic today?
If it brought up rich Jewish bankers 70 years ago and only brings up rich bankers now, it’s obviously less antisemitic now than it used to be. But in any case, you cannot use the name “Rothschild” to make the point that a Jewish person would have a disadvantage in an election—you could at most make the point that someone whose name brings to mind rich Jewis people might have a disadvantage. I think this is more properly construed as the basis of brazil’s original objection.
You also don’t know if they are Jewish.
Being Akashi Jewish is a racial category that has something to do with who your ancestors happen to be. If someone is named Rothshield that suggest at least partly Akashi Jewish ancestry.
People who descriminate against Jewish people often don’t care whether the person is practicing Judaism but more about their ancestery.
Sure, and if someone is named Rothschild, it also suggests that they come from wealth. It doesn’t mean they are wealthy and it doesn’t mean they are Jewish.
By the way, I think the word you are looking for is “Ashkenazi” not “Akashi.”
Not necessarily. Let me ask you this: Imagine your hypothetical left-winger who won’t vote for a Rothschild. Do you think that person would vote for a “Rockefeller”? My guess is he probably wouldn’t, but even if he would, he would probably invent some rationalization for it so he could pretend to himself and his peers that he is not an anti-Semite.
By the way, I do agree that much of the time, criticism of “Bankers” or “Wall Street Bankers” or “Elites who Control the Media” etc. is tinged with anti-Semitism, even when it comes from the Left.
It means “yes according to what you literally said, no according to what you’d have to mean for what you’re asking to make any sense”.
The reduction in discrimination against Jews has a progressive component and an anti-progressive component. So literally speaking, a “significant part of the reason there is less discrimination” is progressive. But the whole thing is not.
Since you have specified that the club is WASPy, you are no longer asking whether someone would approve of discrimination against Jews, you’re asking if they would approve of discrimination against Jews and in favor of white Christians—a subcategory of that. It is entirely plausible that that subcategory of discrimination is more supported by the right, while discrimination against Jews in general is not
Also, the question asks if P(not progressive|discrimination) is large. Even if this is true, it would not imply that P(discrimination|not progressive) is large.
I didn’t ask about the whole thing—I asked about a “significant part.” But anyway, let’s do this: Please tell me the three most prominent American industries over the last 50-years in the United States where (1) there has been a reduction in employment discrimination against Jewish people; and (2) the reduction was primarily anti-progressive in terms of its’ “component.”
So are you saying that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
And even if that were true, it wouldn’t matter. Because the real question is which is more consistent with modern progressive political views—continuing to keep Jews out of the country club or letting them in. I take it you concede that it’s the latter?
I don’t claim that there is an industry where the reduction in discrimination against Jews is primarily anti-progressive, but rather where the reduction is in approximately equal measures progressive and anti-progressive.
Ok, can you give me 3 examples of such industries?
Also, are you saying that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
Pretty much every industry that has a lot of people who aren’t progressive.
Same answer as before: the answer to the literal question you asked is “yes”, but the answer to a version of it that is meaningful would be “no”. That question as you ask it has no bearing on what you’re using it to prove.
So can you please name 3?
Well perhaps it does and perhaps it does not, but it’s useful to understand what we agree about so as to get a bettter handle on what we disagree about.
So, just so we are clear, you agree that just looking at discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians, reduction of this type of anti-Semitism is consistent with modern progressive political views. Agreed? (And yes, I totally understand that you don’t believe that this fact rebuts your position.)
I deduce that it has decreased in many industries from the fact that it has decreased in general. This means that I know that it has decreased in more than 3 industries without being able to name 3 industries. Of course, I could name three random industries and have a high chance of being correct, but if I did so you could then complain that I had no statistics specific to each one.
:confused: I am not just asking for industries where job discrimination against Jews has decreased. I am asking about industries where job discrimination against Jews has decreased AND according to you that reduction is roughly equal in terms of progressive and non-progressive components.
I take it you are unable to identify even one such industry?
I will accept that discrimination against Jews has decreased in pretty much every industry. But that’s not the critical issue in this exchange and you know it perfectly well. Your claim is that there exist industries where the reduction in job discrimination against Jews is roughly equal in terms of progressive and non-progressive components. I am very skeptical that any such industries exist and I would like you to name 3 AND show me your evidence that this is the case for them.
Can you even name three American industries which have had a reduction in discrimination against Jews in hiring which reduction was NOT reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians?
Just like discrimination against Jews has decreased in pretty much every industry, discrimination against Jews has decreased with a non-progressive component in pretty much every industry too (except for industries that don’t have many non-progressives).
Please name three such industries. If it’s “pretty much every industry,” it should be extremely easy for you.
Also, note that you claimed there exist industries where the reduction in job discrimination against Jews is roughly EQUAL in terms of progressive and non-progressive components. I am very skeptical that any such industries exist and I would like you to name 3 AND show me your evidence that this is the case for them.
Finally, can you even name three American industries which have had a reduction in discrimination against Jews in hiring which reduction was NOT reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians?
Quite likely this is the last time I will ask you for evidence or examples to back up your claim. If you continue to fail to provide them, I will conclude that you have nothing to go on besides your own wishful thinking.
Do you want me to name three with specific evidence for each industry, or without?
The evidence should support your claim, i.e. be applicable to each industry, but can be general in application.
Also, please respond to all of my questions from the last post. If you ignore them or dance around, I’m going to most likely conclude you can’t back up your claims.
The Wikipedia article on antisemitism in America lists right-wing anti-Semitic groups of the past that are disbanded nowadays (such as the Liberty Lobby), and several factors that increase left-wing anti-Semitism, such as greater anti-Semitism among blacks (who are likely to be on the left). The right is still involved in “New antisemitism”, but on an equal basis with the left.
There was also a Republican who appointed a Jewish supreme Court justice and another who nominated one unsuccessfully. I don’t think that Republicans suddenly decided it was okay to appoint Jews because of the progressive movement.
Of course, none of this is specific to an industry, but it is reasonable to conclude that anti-Semitism generally being on par between the left and right also means that it is on par between the left and right in industries. If you refuse to accept a reduction in right-wing anti-Semitism or an increase in left-wing anti-Semitism outside industries as also indicating a similar movement within industries, there’s no way I can convince you.
And the “in favor of white Christians” question is 1) not something I claimed (so asking me for examples of something I never claimed is pointless) and 2) irrelevant. “Reduced discrimination in favor of white Christians” is not necessarily progressive. “Reduced discrimination against Jews and for white Christians, because nobody should be discriminated against” might arguably be progressive, but “reduced discrimination against Jews and for white Christians, because Jews now go in the friend category instead of the enemy category” is not progressive.
That’s not an answer to my question—nothing here has to do with job discrimination. Besides which, blacks on the left do not necessarily adhere to modern progressive values. For example, there is a lot of opposition to gay marriage in the Black community.
Not an answer to my question, and besides which, you are wrong. Republicans have been heavily influenced by the increased adherence to modern progressive values. Perhaps they are 20 or 30 years behind the Democrats, but, for example there is plenty of support among Republicans for things which came out of progressive thinking such as bans on race discrimination, rights for women etc.
Again, you fail to give specific examples. And you conflate republican with non-progressive. Which in the case of discrimination is simply false.
Yes it is. You implicitly conceded that “reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views” (Actually you tried your best to wriggle out of it but you first implied it and then did not dispute it when I told you I was assuming that your positive response was a response to my question on this point.
So now you are weaseling, i.e. pretending you said something different from what you actually said.
Anyway, you have presented essentially no evidence to support your sweeping claims about employment discrimination. You have failed to produce examples. And now you have weaseled.
I conclude that you have no evidence besides wishful thinking to support your position, which position really is quite ridiculous. Your argument has completely failed to stand up to scrutiny.
In any event, I have my own rules of debate—I don’t engage with people who won’t answer reasonable questions about their position; who refuse to provide examples; or who pretend they took a different position from what they actually took. I’m not interested in engaging people who hide their positions or weasel. So I’m adding you to my shit list.
Goodbye.
I must wonder exactly what you expect me to use to show that something or someone isn’t progressive, then, if political affiliation is unacceptable.
It’s consistent with progressive views, but those are not the only views it’s consistent with. It’s consistent with a lot of things, including other, non-progressive, views.
And that’s why I’m very careful about answering your questions: because I know you’re going to interpret them as support for or opposition to views which they don’t actually support or oppose. Confusing “consistent with” and “implies” is an elementary mistake, yet you’re so sure about it that you want to use that as a reason not to discuss anything with me at all!
But I brought up the example. To refute the example, you have to show that discrimination against Jews in general has gone down due to progressive thought, not just that a component of it has.
Now you’re asking about whether P(no discrimination|progressive) > P(discrimination|progressive), which is a different question. The answer to this one is also “yes to what you just literally asked”.
It’s also true that P(no discrimination|not progressive) > P(discrimination|not progressive).
That may be so, but I was asking a question in order to understand and scrutinize your position. When I ask a question, and instead of just answering it you guess or imagine what argument is behind the question, and then respond to the argument and don’t answer the question, it increases the confusion and makes me suspect you are trying to dance around the issues.
Actually not, I was asking exactly what I asked. Anyway, I take it you concede that reduction of discrimination against Jews in favor of White Christians probably is, for the most part, consistent with modern progressive political views?
When you ask a question that is very peculiar as a request for information, but completely understandable as an attempt to make a fallacious argument while maintaining plausible deniability about exactly what your argument is, that increases the confusion too.
Perhaps, but I have not done so. Anyway, the simple way to respond to such a question and deal with the issue is to say “Yes, I agree with X but I don’t think it undermines my position for reason Y. Are you trying to make argument Z?”
I did answer it/ The answer is yes.
:confused: The post you are responding to does not contain a question I have asked you. Besides which, it has taken a lot of patience to get answers out of you.
I assume that just now you were responding to this question:
Given the prevalence of what Scott Alexander calls object-level thinking, I’d guess people against banning discrimination on the basis of religion are less likely to be progressivist than the rest of population in regions where said discrimination is more commonly in favour of believers against atheists than vice versa, and more likely elsewhere.
That may be so, but my question is more of a practical one than a theoretical one. I’m asking about the West in the 20th century, with an emphasis on the United States.
I don’t think the West, or even the United States, is as homogeneous as you appear to imply.
Turns out that believers and atheists are discriminated against in the US, presumably by different people.
I wasn’t trying to imply such . . . I was just looking for a concrete answer to my question.
With that in mind, what’s your answer to the question? If you are told that there is an American who opposes policies which prohibit job discrimination on the basis of religion, would it make you more likely or less likely (or the same) to believe that such person holds progressive political views?
I dunno—averaged over all of the US, probably more likely, but I’m not sure.