I’m 19 years old and a rising sophomore at an American university. I first came across Less Wrong five months ago, when one of my friends posted the “Twelve Virtues of Rationality” on facebook. I thought little of it, but soon afterward, when reading Leah Libresco’s blog on atheism (she’s since converted to catholicism), I saw a reference to Less Wrong, and figured I would check it out. I’ve been reading the Sequences sporadically for a few months, and just got up to date on HPMOR, so I thought I would join the community and perhaps begin posting.
Although I have little background in mathematics, cognitive science, or computer programming, I have had a long-standing, deep interest in ethics and happiness, both of which inevitably lead to an interest in epistemology. Since I began hanging around Less Wrong, my interest in logic and cognitive biases has definitely been piqued as well. Some of my other, less relevant, interests include intellectual history, music, Western classic literature, literary theory, aesthetics, economics, and political philosophy. I also enjoy the New York Giants and playing the piano.
I love debating others, but mostly debating myself—I do so constantly, but too often inconclusively. The main advantage I’ve found of debating others is that they help disabuse me of my own self-deceptions. Reading good literature usually serves this purpose as well.
A strong part of my identity is that I am a religious Jew. I am not a theist, but I keep a large portion of Jewish law, mostly because I am satisfied that doing so is a good use of my time. I can’t remember a case when Jewish law has collided with my ethics, perhaps because so many of my ethical intuitions come from the Jewish tradition.
It amuses me that the Less Wrong community refers to itself as “rationalist,” given that at one point in intellectual history, “rationalists” were those who did not believe in empiricism. Aside from that, I’m extremely excited to learn from all of you.
It amuses me that the Less Wrong community refers to itself as “rationalist,” given that at one point in intellectual history, “rationalists” were those who did not believe in empiricism.
Are you referring to Humean rationalists? Before Hume used empiricism to show how by mere empiricism one can never certainly identify the cause of an effect, empirical thought was lauded by Cartesian rationalists. Hume’s objection to an overreliance on empiricism also (partially) helped galvanize the Romantic movement, bringing an end to the Enlightenment. Future individuals throughout history who considered themselves rationalists were of the Cartesian tradition, not ‘all is uncertain’ Humean rationalism (see Albert from Goethe’s The Sufferings of Young Werther for one example). Those who embraced Hume’s insight, though it should be mentioned that Hume himself thought that fully embracing same would be quite foolish, did not call themselves rationalists, but were divers members of myriad movements across history.
Hume’s point remained an open problem until it was later considered solved by Einstein’s theory of special relativity.
I may be misremembering, but if I recall correctly with Einstein’s theory of special relativity it was at the time considered finally possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies in our universe. While Newton proved what laws the universe is bound by, he never figured out how these rules operated beyond what was plainly observable. When Einstein’s theory of special relativity became accepted, that ball X caused the effect of ball Y’s movement became mathematically provable at such a level of precision that Hume’s insight—what causes the effect of ball Y’s movement is not empirically discernible—became sound no longer.
I admit the above is a bit vague, and perhaps dangerously so. If it doesn’t clear up your question let me know, and I’ll check over my notes when I get the chance.
I may be misremembering, but if I recall correctly with Einstein’s theory of special relativity it finally became possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies in our universe.
This is incorrect. MHD is correct about the right response to “all is uncertain,” which is “right, but there are shades of uncertainty from 0 to 1, and we can measure them.”
Newton’s theory of gravitation is a very close approximation to Einstein’s general relativity, but it is measurably different in some cases (precession of Mercury, gravitational lensing, and more). Einstein showed that gravity can be neatly explained by the curvature of spacetime, that mass distorts the “fabric” of space (I use quotes because that’s not the mathematical term for it, but it conjures a nice image that isn’t too far off of reality). Objects move in straight lines along curved spacetime, but to us it looks like they go in loops around stars and such.
Special relativity has to do with the relation of space and time for objects sufficiently far away from each other that gravity doesn’t affect them. Causality is enforced by this theory since nothing can go faster than light, and so all spacetime intervals we run into are time-like (That’s just a fancy way of saying we only see wot’s in our light cone).
(I think it was general relativity, not special relativity.) I can see where whoever said that is coming from, but I’m not sure I 100% agree. (I will elaborate on this when I have more time.)
(I think it was general relativity, not special relativity.)
Special relativity was formalised around ten years earlier than general relativity (around 1905), which better fits in with my mental timeline of the fin de siecle.
I can see where whoever said that is coming from[...]
Whoever asserted that Einstein’s theory had resolved Hume’s insight? or whoever said that, at the time, the educated generally considered Einstein’s theory to have resolved Hume’s insight? If the former, I think it was more a widespread idea that the majority of the educated shared, rather than one person’s assertion.
Regardless of to whom you were referring, I look forward to your elaboration!
Special relativity was formalised around ten years earlier than general relativity (around 1905), which better fits in with my mental timeline of the fin de siecle.
I can’t see what special relativity would have to do with Hume. It just extended the principle of relativity, which was already introduced by Galileo, to the propagation of light at a finite speed, though with all kinds of counter-intuitive results such as the relativity of simultaneity. By itself, it still doesn’t predict (say) gravitation. (It does predict conservation of energy, momentum and angular momentum if you assume space-time is homogeneous and isotropic and use Noether’s theorem, but so does Galilean relativity for that matter.)
On the other hand, general relativity, from a small number of very simple assumptions, predicts quite a lot of things (pretty much any non-quantum phenomenon which had observed back then except electromagnetism). Indeed Einstein said he was completely certain his theory would prove to be true before it was even tested. EDIT: you actually need more data than I remembered to get to GR: see http://lesswrong.com/lw/jo/einsteins_arrogance/757x
(Wow, now that I’m trying to explain that, I realize that the difference between SR and GR in these respects are nowhere near as important as I was thinking.)
Anyway, there’s still no logical reason why those very simple assumptions have to be true; you still need experience to tell you they are.
Thank you for the review! It makes a lot in the two wikipedia articles on special and general relativity easier to digest.
Can you give me some pointers? I can’t recall ever hearing about that before.
I intend on thoroughly going over my notes this weekend so I can separate historical fact from interpretation, which are currently grouped together in my memory. I’ll be able to do your response justice then.
I’m not an expert in philosophy, but if we are talking physics, relativity, special or general, did not do anything of the sort you claim: “Einstein’s theory of special relativity it was at the time considered finally possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies in our universe.” If anything, the Newtonian mechanics had a better claim at determinism, at least until 19th century, when it became clear than electromagnetism comes with a host of paradoxes, not cleared up until both SR and QM were developed. Of course, this immediately caused more trouble than it solved, and I recall no serious physicist who claimed that it was ” finally possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies”, given that QM is inherently non-deterministic, SR showing that Newtonian gravity is incomplete. and GR was not shown to be well-posed until much later.
Thank you for your input. I also do not know of any serious physicist who asserted that causality had been finally and definitively solved by SR; from what I was taught, it was as I said more a widespread idea that the majority of the educated shared, rather than one person’s assertion.
Indeed, Hume’s insight is more of a philosophical problem than a mathematical one. Hume showed that empiricism alone could never determine causality. Einstein’s STR showed that causality can be determined empirically when aided by maths, a tool of the empiricist. It can be argued that STR does not definitively prove causality itself (perhaps very rightly so—again, I am not aware), however the salient point is that STR gave rise to the conception that Hume’s insight had finally been resolved. To be clear, in order to resolve Hume’s insight one only needed to demonstrate that through empiricism it is possible to establish causality.
I was referring to the dispute in the 17th and 18th centuries with Hume, Berkeley, and Locke on the empiricist side, and Descartes, Leibnitz, and Spinoza, on the rationalist Side, as described in this paper.
Out of curiosity, what is the connection between atoms and causality?
Sorry, it was Einstein’s theory of special relativity that resolved Hume’s insight, not atomic theory. Basically, Hume argued that if you see a ball X hit a ball Y, and subsequently ball Y begins rolling at the same speed of ball X, all one has really experienced is the perception of ball X moving next to ball Y and the subsequent spontaneous acceleration of ball Y. Infinity out of infinity times you may experience the exact same perception whenever ball X bumps into ball Y, but in Hume’s time there was no empirical way to prove that the collision of ball X into ball Y caused the effect of the latter’s acceleration. With this, you can. I’m afraid I can’t answer in any more depth than that, as I myself don’t understand the mathematics behind it. Anyone else?
Hi everyone!
I’m 19 years old and a rising sophomore at an American university. I first came across Less Wrong five months ago, when one of my friends posted the “Twelve Virtues of Rationality” on facebook. I thought little of it, but soon afterward, when reading Leah Libresco’s blog on atheism (she’s since converted to catholicism), I saw a reference to Less Wrong, and figured I would check it out. I’ve been reading the Sequences sporadically for a few months, and just got up to date on HPMOR, so I thought I would join the community and perhaps begin posting.
Although I have little background in mathematics, cognitive science, or computer programming, I have had a long-standing, deep interest in ethics and happiness, both of which inevitably lead to an interest in epistemology. Since I began hanging around Less Wrong, my interest in logic and cognitive biases has definitely been piqued as well. Some of my other, less relevant, interests include intellectual history, music, Western classic literature, literary theory, aesthetics, economics, and political philosophy. I also enjoy the New York Giants and playing the piano.
I love debating others, but mostly debating myself—I do so constantly, but too often inconclusively. The main advantage I’ve found of debating others is that they help disabuse me of my own self-deceptions. Reading good literature usually serves this purpose as well.
A strong part of my identity is that I am a religious Jew. I am not a theist, but I keep a large portion of Jewish law, mostly because I am satisfied that doing so is a good use of my time. I can’t remember a case when Jewish law has collided with my ethics, perhaps because so many of my ethical intuitions come from the Jewish tradition.
It amuses me that the Less Wrong community refers to itself as “rationalist,” given that at one point in intellectual history, “rationalists” were those who did not believe in empiricism. Aside from that, I’m extremely excited to learn from all of you.
Are you referring to Humean rationalists? Before Hume used empiricism to show how by mere empiricism one can never certainly identify the cause of an effect, empirical thought was lauded by Cartesian rationalists. Hume’s objection to an overreliance on empiricism also (partially) helped galvanize the Romantic movement, bringing an end to the Enlightenment. Future individuals throughout history who considered themselves rationalists were of the Cartesian tradition, not ‘all is uncertain’ Humean rationalism (see Albert from Goethe’s The Sufferings of Young Werther for one example). Those who embraced Hume’s insight, though it should be mentioned that Hume himself thought that fully embracing same would be quite foolish, did not call themselves rationalists, but were divers members of myriad movements across history.
Hume’s point remained an open problem until it was later considered solved by Einstein’s theory of special relativity.
Welcome, by the way.
What?
I may be misremembering, but if I recall correctly with Einstein’s theory of special relativity it was at the time considered finally possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies in our universe. While Newton proved what laws the universe is bound by, he never figured out how these rules operated beyond what was plainly observable. When Einstein’s theory of special relativity became accepted, that ball X caused the effect of ball Y’s movement became mathematically provable at such a level of precision that Hume’s insight—what causes the effect of ball Y’s movement is not empirically discernible—became sound no longer.
I admit the above is a bit vague, and perhaps dangerously so. If it doesn’t clear up your question let me know, and I’ll check over my notes when I get the chance.
This is incorrect. MHD is correct about the right response to “all is uncertain,” which is “right, but there are shades of uncertainty from 0 to 1, and we can measure them.”
Thank you, both of you. I changed the text to reflect only STR’s historical significance in regard to Hume’s insight.
Newton’s theory of gravitation is a very close approximation to Einstein’s general relativity, but it is measurably different in some cases (precession of Mercury, gravitational lensing, and more). Einstein showed that gravity can be neatly explained by the curvature of spacetime, that mass distorts the “fabric” of space (I use quotes because that’s not the mathematical term for it, but it conjures a nice image that isn’t too far off of reality). Objects move in straight lines along curved spacetime, but to us it looks like they go in loops around stars and such.
Special relativity has to do with the relation of space and time for objects sufficiently far away from each other that gravity doesn’t affect them. Causality is enforced by this theory since nothing can go faster than light, and so all spacetime intervals we run into are time-like (That’s just a fancy way of saying we only see wot’s in our light cone).
(I think it was general relativity, not special relativity.) I can see where whoever said that is coming from, but I’m not sure I 100% agree. (I will elaborate on this when I have more time.)
Special relativity was formalised around ten years earlier than general relativity (around 1905), which better fits in with my mental timeline of the fin de siecle.
Whoever asserted that Einstein’s theory had resolved Hume’s insight? or whoever said that, at the time, the educated generally considered Einstein’s theory to have resolved Hume’s insight? If the former, I think it was more a widespread idea that the majority of the educated shared, rather than one person’s assertion.
Regardless of to whom you were referring, I look forward to your elaboration!
I can’t see what special relativity would have to do with Hume. It just extended the principle of relativity, which was already introduced by Galileo, to the propagation of light at a finite speed, though with all kinds of counter-intuitive results such as the relativity of simultaneity. By itself, it still doesn’t predict (say) gravitation. (It does predict conservation of energy, momentum and angular momentum if you assume space-time is homogeneous and isotropic and use Noether’s theorem, but so does Galilean relativity for that matter.)
On the other hand, general relativity, from a small number of very simple assumptions, predicts quite a lot of things (pretty much any non-quantum phenomenon which had observed back then except electromagnetism). Indeed Einstein said he was completely certain his theory would prove to be true before it was even tested. EDIT: you actually need more data than I remembered to get to GR: see http://lesswrong.com/lw/jo/einsteins_arrogance/757x
(Wow, now that I’m trying to explain that, I realize that the difference between SR and GR in these respects are nowhere near as important as I was thinking.)
Anyway, there’s still no logical reason why those very simple assumptions have to be true; you still need experience to tell you they are.
The comments to http://lesswrong.com/lw/jo/einsteins_arrogance/ go into more detail about this.
Can you give me some pointers? I can’t recall ever hearing about that before.
Thank you for the review! It makes a lot in the two wikipedia articles on special and general relativity easier to digest.
I intend on thoroughly going over my notes this weekend so I can separate historical fact from interpretation, which are currently grouped together in my memory. I’ll be able to do your response justice then.
I’m not an expert in philosophy, but if we are talking physics, relativity, special or general, did not do anything of the sort you claim: “Einstein’s theory of special relativity it was at the time considered finally possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies in our universe.” If anything, the Newtonian mechanics had a better claim at determinism, at least until 19th century, when it became clear than electromagnetism comes with a host of paradoxes, not cleared up until both SR and QM were developed. Of course, this immediately caused more trouble than it solved, and I recall no serious physicist who claimed that it was ” finally possible to accurately and precisely predict the movements of bodies”, given that QM is inherently non-deterministic, SR showing that Newtonian gravity is incomplete. and GR was not shown to be well-posed until much later.
Thank you for your input. I also do not know of any serious physicist who asserted that causality had been finally and definitively solved by SR; from what I was taught, it was as I said more a widespread idea that the majority of the educated shared, rather than one person’s assertion.
Indeed, Hume’s insight is more of a philosophical problem than a mathematical one. Hume showed that empiricism alone could never determine causality. Einstein’s STR showed that causality can be determined empirically when aided by maths, a tool of the empiricist. It can be argued that STR does not definitively prove causality itself (perhaps very rightly so—again, I am not aware), however the salient point is that STR gave rise to the conception that Hume’s insight had finally been resolved. To be clear, in order to resolve Hume’s insight one only needed to demonstrate that through empiricism it is possible to establish causality.
The notion of Cause and Effect was captured mathematically, statistically and succinctly by Judea Pearl, empiricism is defined by Bayes Theorem.
I was referring to the dispute in the 17th and 18th centuries with Hume, Berkeley, and Locke on the empiricist side, and Descartes, Leibnitz, and Spinoza, on the rationalist Side, as described in this paper.
Out of curiosity, what is the connection between atoms and causality?
Enlightening! Thank you for the paper.
Sorry, it was Einstein’s theory of special relativity that resolved Hume’s insight, not atomic theory. Basically, Hume argued that if you see a ball X hit a ball Y, and subsequently ball Y begins rolling at the same speed of ball X, all one has really experienced is the perception of ball X moving next to ball Y and the subsequent spontaneous acceleration of ball Y. Infinity out of infinity times you may experience the exact same perception whenever ball X bumps into ball Y, but in Hume’s time there was no empirical way to prove that the collision of ball X into ball Y caused the effect of the latter’s acceleration. With this, you can. I’m afraid I can’t answer in any more depth than that, as I myself don’t understand the mathematics behind it. Anyone else?