Isn’t it actually their methods you disapprove of?
I guess in addition to defining “respect” I should have defined “goal”. In attempting to fully describe a goal, I’d usually be inclined to include caveats about what methods wouldn’t be okay for me to use to achieve that goal. For instance, it’s my goal to watch the entirety of Stargate SG-1, but not if I have to steal the DVDs from WalMart to do it.
Why is this less morally objectionable than the manipulative NLP of a pickup artist? “I did work today and seek praise” is an extraordinarily manipulative (and clever) statement.
I’m… sorry you feel that way? I am genuinely going for “clear and honest”, not “manipulative and clever”.
After all, if it never worked, surely you would self-update to a better technique.
If saying “I did work today and request praise” (an example of something I actually said today) doesn’t promptly yield praise, I (actually did) follow up with “You are not fulfilling my request. You should fix that.” If that hadn’t “worked”, I probably would have gone and talked to somebody else, and refrained from seeking praise from that person in the future, on the assumption that they had no interest in praising me for doing work. I wouldn’t have moved to a less clear and honest strategy to get the uncooperative individual to give me what I wanted.
If saying “I did work today and request praise” (an example of something I actually said today) doesn’t promptly yield praise, I (actually did) follow up with “You are not fulfilling my request. You should fix that.” If that hadn’t “worked”, I probably would have gone and talked to somebody else, and refrained from seeking praise from that person in the future, on the assumption that they had no interest in praising me for doing work.
Did you offer your conversation partner anything of value, other than an implied threat of disapproval if they failed to accede to your demand? Were you thinking about their goals, other than how they related to your desire to receive praise?
It seems to me that, by your definitions, one can objectify, or manipulate, but not both. If you took your conversant’s goals into consideration and offered something for what you wanted, then you manipulated. If you didn’t take them into account, then you objectified.
Or do you claim that there is a third category, in which you thought about their goals, but didn’t allow this to affect your choices in any way? Then this seems like even worse objectification, since you knew they had other goals and nonetheless chose not to act accordingly.
Or perhaps the loophole is that if you just state what you want, then other people simply “should” give it to you, and that therefore this isn’t manipulation? Is it only manipulation if you offer to give someone something they actually want, and offering veiled threats instead is just “honest” communication?
Now, let’s contrast your strategy with a pickup-artist strategy, known as the Apocalypse Opener. Like your approach, it’s based on blunt honesty and an open statement of intention. But there are a couple of key differences.
First, the PUA waits until the third sentence of the conversation (not counting “hello” or “hey”) to state his intention, treating the other person with conventional courtesy first, rather than simply stating a demand.
Second, the request is not even a request, let alone a demand. It’s framed as an invitation, an offering of something valuable.
Third, if the invitation is declined, the PUA neither pressures the other person with a threat of disapproval, nor departs the conversation. He simply continues treating them in a friendly way, leaving the invitation open and giving them time to consider it.
By your definitions, which is more manipulative? Which more objectifying? To whom?
At a first glance, yours strikes me as both more manipulative and more objectifying, since you don’t offer your conversant anything of value to them (i.e. ignoring their goals and objectifying), and you include a veiled threat (using their goals to get what you want, i.e. manipulation). In contrast, the PUA does nothing but offer things of potential value to his conversant, and does not offer even the minor threat of withholding his approval or company.
Did you offer your conversation partner anything of value, other than an implied threat of disapproval if they failed to accede to your demand? Were you thinking about their goals, other than how they related to your desire to receive praise?
This is the beginning of the conversation in question:
Alicorn: I did work and request praise!
Alicorn: You are not fulfilling my request.
Alicorn: You should fix that.
Interlocutor Mine, Name Redacted: *praise*
Alicorn: :D
Interlocutor Mine, Name Redacted: Good job, keep up the good work
Alicorn: *is pleased with self*
Prior context in an earlier conversation included an exchange about how I’ve been having trouble getting work done lately, and should be chided if I didn’t do any today. So… I guess I offered my charming company and a smiley? IMNR is my friend, we talk frequently, I usually operate under the assumption that IMNR has some desire to interact with me in a friendly manner. IMNR is free to disabuse me of this notion at any time and I will leave him alone.
If you took your conversant’s goals into consideration and offered something for what you wanted, then you manipulated. If you didn’t take them into account, then you objectified.
Explicit trades of services do not have to be objectifying. I exchange Christmas gifts with various relatives, and if I stopped giving people Christmas presents, I’d probably stop getting them; that doesn’t mean anybody is being objectified.
Or do you claim that there is a third category, in which you thought about their goals, but didn’t allow this to affect your choices in any way?
Something can be an influencing factor without being a controlling factor. For instance, when I make curry, the cayenne pepper contributes to the curry being spicy. If I left out the cayenne, it would still be spicy, because there are a half a dozen other spicy things in it.
Or perhaps the loophole is that if you just state what you want, then other people simply “should” give it to you, and that therefore this isn’t manipulation?
No, not really. Certain desires ought to be accommodated (e.g. I just asked my roommate if it’d bother her for me to have music on in a particular room when she went to bed; she said yes, so I moved to a different room). Certain desires don’t have to (I doubt I would have harbored resentment if IMNR had refrained from supplying desired praise) and satisfying them is super-erogatory.
Now, let’s contrast your strategy with a pickup-artist strategy, known as the Apocalypse Opener.
Meh. It looks honest enough; some phatic introduction and a question. There doesn’t seem anything wrong with this strategy in particular to me. It surprises me that it works, but that’s purely empirical.
If people want things of value from me, they can ask me for them. If I want things from other people, I ask for them. If I have something I think someone else would like and I like them and want them to have it, I offer it to them. People who like me and have things they think I would like and want me to have them offer them to me. These events don’t always occur simultaneously, but over the course of a friendship or other extended interpersonal association, it works well enough to suit me.
For instance, it’s my goal to watch the entirety of Stargate SG-1, but not if I have to steal the DVDs from WalMart to do it.
So to dig up an old chestnut, the ends do not justify the means. What I am still unsure about is whether or not you disapprove of the ends. Does this mean you are okay with the goal of picking up women, as long as you do not use particular techniques to do so? The stumbling block I run into on this is that there are no male-female sexual interactions entirely free of psychological modeling, signaling or predictive behaviour on both sides—or if there are, they certainly don’t exist in the human population at large. It seems to me that pickup artists are merely trying to compete with men who are naturally charismatic and charming. Is the real solution to actually handicap such men so that manipulative techniques are not necessary for competition?
By the way, I consider watching the entirety of Stargate SG-1 morally questionable, but this argument is subjective enough as it is...
I’m… sorry you feel that way? I am genuinely going for “clear and honest”, not “manipulative and clever”.
As you have pointed out, your intentions should not be confused with your methods.
You seem to think that adopting a baseline, rational approach to something like requesting praise for your work is maximally non-manipulative and honest. It certainly could be, if you were speaking to a Turing-incomplete chatbot. Unfortunately, people don’t operate that way. If you formally ask for praise and object when none is forthcoming, are you respecting the “goals, interests and personhood” of the recipient as much as you would be if you asked nothing of them? And can such a non-standard method of human communication possibly be as “clear and honest” as a standard method? Put another way, does your employment of open honesty contain other signals i.e. does it carry the signal “You should give my request for praise more weight because I am visibly being honest and not trying to bait you into it”?
Be wary of saying things that are the equivalent of “I’m not going to say ‘trust me’, because that doesn’t mean anything, but a is b.” Such a statement actually indicates that the speaker is doubly untrustworthy.
Now, I don’t believe you are being intentionally manipulative and clever, or that you are definitely being so unintentionally. This is not an argument I’m trying to win against you. I’m just asking you to consider the chance that you unaware of the possibility of it.
Does this mean you are okay with the goal of picking up women, as long as you do not use particular techniques to do so?
I have no ethical problems with the desire to have no-strings-attached sex with people of any description. I simply require that this be pursued honestly and non-coercively.
It seems to me that pickup artists are merely trying to compete with men who are naturally charismatic and charming.
I also have no ethical problem with people trying to become more charismatic and charming.
does your employment of open honesty contain other signals i.e. does it carry the signal “You should give my request for praise more weight because I am visibly being honest and not trying to bait you into it”?
No, not really. Or if it does, that’s an accident. I started doing my intention-announcement when I decided that if I was going to get annoyed at other people wanting me to read their minds, I’d better provide the courtesy I wanted to them. I did not wish to become one of the people whose interpersonal relationships were plagued with arguments that wind up culminating in “Well, why didn’t you just say so?” If I seek praise, I announce it. Other people may or may not care about my seeking, and may or may not indulge my desire. This gives me information about their dispositions towards me, instead of confused feedback that might reflect on either that or their level of telepathic ability.
It’s possible that I’m being unintentionally manipulative, and if that is the case, I would like to stop. If you have suggestions about how I can signify all and only the things I think I’m signifying in my sample statements and statements like them, I’d welcome the input.
For reference, I would find your method to be manipulative. I also don’t think you’re being manipulative on purpose (or at least I don’t have any data to think you are or aren’t).
I don’t think there is a fully general way to request praise without manipulation. It’s going to depend on each person’s life experiences and how they view you.
I guess in addition to defining “respect” I should have defined “goal”. In attempting to fully describe a goal, I’d usually be inclined to include caveats about what methods wouldn’t be okay for me to use to achieve that goal. For instance, it’s my goal to watch the entirety of Stargate SG-1, but not if I have to steal the DVDs from WalMart to do it.
I’m… sorry you feel that way? I am genuinely going for “clear and honest”, not “manipulative and clever”.
If saying “I did work today and request praise” (an example of something I actually said today) doesn’t promptly yield praise, I (actually did) follow up with “You are not fulfilling my request. You should fix that.” If that hadn’t “worked”, I probably would have gone and talked to somebody else, and refrained from seeking praise from that person in the future, on the assumption that they had no interest in praising me for doing work. I wouldn’t have moved to a less clear and honest strategy to get the uncooperative individual to give me what I wanted.
Did you offer your conversation partner anything of value, other than an implied threat of disapproval if they failed to accede to your demand? Were you thinking about their goals, other than how they related to your desire to receive praise?
It seems to me that, by your definitions, one can objectify, or manipulate, but not both. If you took your conversant’s goals into consideration and offered something for what you wanted, then you manipulated. If you didn’t take them into account, then you objectified.
Or do you claim that there is a third category, in which you thought about their goals, but didn’t allow this to affect your choices in any way? Then this seems like even worse objectification, since you knew they had other goals and nonetheless chose not to act accordingly.
Or perhaps the loophole is that if you just state what you want, then other people simply “should” give it to you, and that therefore this isn’t manipulation? Is it only manipulation if you offer to give someone something they actually want, and offering veiled threats instead is just “honest” communication?
Now, let’s contrast your strategy with a pickup-artist strategy, known as the Apocalypse Opener. Like your approach, it’s based on blunt honesty and an open statement of intention. But there are a couple of key differences.
First, the PUA waits until the third sentence of the conversation (not counting “hello” or “hey”) to state his intention, treating the other person with conventional courtesy first, rather than simply stating a demand.
Second, the request is not even a request, let alone a demand. It’s framed as an invitation, an offering of something valuable.
Third, if the invitation is declined, the PUA neither pressures the other person with a threat of disapproval, nor departs the conversation. He simply continues treating them in a friendly way, leaving the invitation open and giving them time to consider it.
By your definitions, which is more manipulative? Which more objectifying? To whom?
At a first glance, yours strikes me as both more manipulative and more objectifying, since you don’t offer your conversant anything of value to them (i.e. ignoring their goals and objectifying), and you include a veiled threat (using their goals to get what you want, i.e. manipulation). In contrast, the PUA does nothing but offer things of potential value to his conversant, and does not offer even the minor threat of withholding his approval or company.
This is the beginning of the conversation in question:
Alicorn: I did work and request praise!
Alicorn: You are not fulfilling my request.
Alicorn: You should fix that.
Interlocutor Mine, Name Redacted: *praise*
Alicorn: :D
Interlocutor Mine, Name Redacted: Good job, keep up the good work
Alicorn: *is pleased with self*
Prior context in an earlier conversation included an exchange about how I’ve been having trouble getting work done lately, and should be chided if I didn’t do any today. So… I guess I offered my charming company and a smiley? IMNR is my friend, we talk frequently, I usually operate under the assumption that IMNR has some desire to interact with me in a friendly manner. IMNR is free to disabuse me of this notion at any time and I will leave him alone.
Explicit trades of services do not have to be objectifying. I exchange Christmas gifts with various relatives, and if I stopped giving people Christmas presents, I’d probably stop getting them; that doesn’t mean anybody is being objectified.
Something can be an influencing factor without being a controlling factor. For instance, when I make curry, the cayenne pepper contributes to the curry being spicy. If I left out the cayenne, it would still be spicy, because there are a half a dozen other spicy things in it.
No, not really. Certain desires ought to be accommodated (e.g. I just asked my roommate if it’d bother her for me to have music on in a particular room when she went to bed; she said yes, so I moved to a different room). Certain desires don’t have to (I doubt I would have harbored resentment if IMNR had refrained from supplying desired praise) and satisfying them is super-erogatory.
Meh. It looks honest enough; some phatic introduction and a question. There doesn’t seem anything wrong with this strategy in particular to me. It surprises me that it works, but that’s purely empirical.
If people want things of value from me, they can ask me for them. If I want things from other people, I ask for them. If I have something I think someone else would like and I like them and want them to have it, I offer it to them. People who like me and have things they think I would like and want me to have them offer them to me. These events don’t always occur simultaneously, but over the course of a friendship or other extended interpersonal association, it works well enough to suit me.
So to dig up an old chestnut, the ends do not justify the means. What I am still unsure about is whether or not you disapprove of the ends. Does this mean you are okay with the goal of picking up women, as long as you do not use particular techniques to do so? The stumbling block I run into on this is that there are no male-female sexual interactions entirely free of psychological modeling, signaling or predictive behaviour on both sides—or if there are, they certainly don’t exist in the human population at large. It seems to me that pickup artists are merely trying to compete with men who are naturally charismatic and charming. Is the real solution to actually handicap such men so that manipulative techniques are not necessary for competition?
By the way, I consider watching the entirety of Stargate SG-1 morally questionable, but this argument is subjective enough as it is...
As you have pointed out, your intentions should not be confused with your methods.
You seem to think that adopting a baseline, rational approach to something like requesting praise for your work is maximally non-manipulative and honest. It certainly could be, if you were speaking to a Turing-incomplete chatbot. Unfortunately, people don’t operate that way. If you formally ask for praise and object when none is forthcoming, are you respecting the “goals, interests and personhood” of the recipient as much as you would be if you asked nothing of them? And can such a non-standard method of human communication possibly be as “clear and honest” as a standard method? Put another way, does your employment of open honesty contain other signals i.e. does it carry the signal “You should give my request for praise more weight because I am visibly being honest and not trying to bait you into it”?
Be wary of saying things that are the equivalent of “I’m not going to say ‘trust me’, because that doesn’t mean anything, but a is b.” Such a statement actually indicates that the speaker is doubly untrustworthy.
Now, I don’t believe you are being intentionally manipulative and clever, or that you are definitely being so unintentionally. This is not an argument I’m trying to win against you. I’m just asking you to consider the chance that you unaware of the possibility of it.
I have no ethical problems with the desire to have no-strings-attached sex with people of any description. I simply require that this be pursued honestly and non-coercively.
I also have no ethical problem with people trying to become more charismatic and charming.
No, not really. Or if it does, that’s an accident. I started doing my intention-announcement when I decided that if I was going to get annoyed at other people wanting me to read their minds, I’d better provide the courtesy I wanted to them. I did not wish to become one of the people whose interpersonal relationships were plagued with arguments that wind up culminating in “Well, why didn’t you just say so?” If I seek praise, I announce it. Other people may or may not care about my seeking, and may or may not indulge my desire. This gives me information about their dispositions towards me, instead of confused feedback that might reflect on either that or their level of telepathic ability.
It’s possible that I’m being unintentionally manipulative, and if that is the case, I would like to stop. If you have suggestions about how I can signify all and only the things I think I’m signifying in my sample statements and statements like them, I’d welcome the input.
For reference, I would find your method to be manipulative. I also don’t think you’re being manipulative on purpose (or at least I don’t have any data to think you are or aren’t).
I don’t think there is a fully general way to request praise without manipulation. It’s going to depend on each person’s life experiences and how they view you.
For reference, I didn’t find it particularly manipulative, though I also don’t appreciate attempts at telepathy.
Under what conditions do you normally find it necessary to attempt to fully describe a goal?
Usually when I’m very, very bored.