For instance, it’s my goal to watch the entirety of Stargate SG-1, but not if I have to steal the DVDs from WalMart to do it.
So to dig up an old chestnut, the ends do not justify the means. What I am still unsure about is whether or not you disapprove of the ends. Does this mean you are okay with the goal of picking up women, as long as you do not use particular techniques to do so? The stumbling block I run into on this is that there are no male-female sexual interactions entirely free of psychological modeling, signaling or predictive behaviour on both sides—or if there are, they certainly don’t exist in the human population at large. It seems to me that pickup artists are merely trying to compete with men who are naturally charismatic and charming. Is the real solution to actually handicap such men so that manipulative techniques are not necessary for competition?
By the way, I consider watching the entirety of Stargate SG-1 morally questionable, but this argument is subjective enough as it is...
I’m… sorry you feel that way? I am genuinely going for “clear and honest”, not “manipulative and clever”.
As you have pointed out, your intentions should not be confused with your methods.
You seem to think that adopting a baseline, rational approach to something like requesting praise for your work is maximally non-manipulative and honest. It certainly could be, if you were speaking to a Turing-incomplete chatbot. Unfortunately, people don’t operate that way. If you formally ask for praise and object when none is forthcoming, are you respecting the “goals, interests and personhood” of the recipient as much as you would be if you asked nothing of them? And can such a non-standard method of human communication possibly be as “clear and honest” as a standard method? Put another way, does your employment of open honesty contain other signals i.e. does it carry the signal “You should give my request for praise more weight because I am visibly being honest and not trying to bait you into it”?
Be wary of saying things that are the equivalent of “I’m not going to say ‘trust me’, because that doesn’t mean anything, but a is b.” Such a statement actually indicates that the speaker is doubly untrustworthy.
Now, I don’t believe you are being intentionally manipulative and clever, or that you are definitely being so unintentionally. This is not an argument I’m trying to win against you. I’m just asking you to consider the chance that you unaware of the possibility of it.
Does this mean you are okay with the goal of picking up women, as long as you do not use particular techniques to do so?
I have no ethical problems with the desire to have no-strings-attached sex with people of any description. I simply require that this be pursued honestly and non-coercively.
It seems to me that pickup artists are merely trying to compete with men who are naturally charismatic and charming.
I also have no ethical problem with people trying to become more charismatic and charming.
does your employment of open honesty contain other signals i.e. does it carry the signal “You should give my request for praise more weight because I am visibly being honest and not trying to bait you into it”?
No, not really. Or if it does, that’s an accident. I started doing my intention-announcement when I decided that if I was going to get annoyed at other people wanting me to read their minds, I’d better provide the courtesy I wanted to them. I did not wish to become one of the people whose interpersonal relationships were plagued with arguments that wind up culminating in “Well, why didn’t you just say so?” If I seek praise, I announce it. Other people may or may not care about my seeking, and may or may not indulge my desire. This gives me information about their dispositions towards me, instead of confused feedback that might reflect on either that or their level of telepathic ability.
It’s possible that I’m being unintentionally manipulative, and if that is the case, I would like to stop. If you have suggestions about how I can signify all and only the things I think I’m signifying in my sample statements and statements like them, I’d welcome the input.
For reference, I would find your method to be manipulative. I also don’t think you’re being manipulative on purpose (or at least I don’t have any data to think you are or aren’t).
I don’t think there is a fully general way to request praise without manipulation. It’s going to depend on each person’s life experiences and how they view you.
So to dig up an old chestnut, the ends do not justify the means. What I am still unsure about is whether or not you disapprove of the ends. Does this mean you are okay with the goal of picking up women, as long as you do not use particular techniques to do so? The stumbling block I run into on this is that there are no male-female sexual interactions entirely free of psychological modeling, signaling or predictive behaviour on both sides—or if there are, they certainly don’t exist in the human population at large. It seems to me that pickup artists are merely trying to compete with men who are naturally charismatic and charming. Is the real solution to actually handicap such men so that manipulative techniques are not necessary for competition?
By the way, I consider watching the entirety of Stargate SG-1 morally questionable, but this argument is subjective enough as it is...
As you have pointed out, your intentions should not be confused with your methods.
You seem to think that adopting a baseline, rational approach to something like requesting praise for your work is maximally non-manipulative and honest. It certainly could be, if you were speaking to a Turing-incomplete chatbot. Unfortunately, people don’t operate that way. If you formally ask for praise and object when none is forthcoming, are you respecting the “goals, interests and personhood” of the recipient as much as you would be if you asked nothing of them? And can such a non-standard method of human communication possibly be as “clear and honest” as a standard method? Put another way, does your employment of open honesty contain other signals i.e. does it carry the signal “You should give my request for praise more weight because I am visibly being honest and not trying to bait you into it”?
Be wary of saying things that are the equivalent of “I’m not going to say ‘trust me’, because that doesn’t mean anything, but a is b.” Such a statement actually indicates that the speaker is doubly untrustworthy.
Now, I don’t believe you are being intentionally manipulative and clever, or that you are definitely being so unintentionally. This is not an argument I’m trying to win against you. I’m just asking you to consider the chance that you unaware of the possibility of it.
I have no ethical problems with the desire to have no-strings-attached sex with people of any description. I simply require that this be pursued honestly and non-coercively.
I also have no ethical problem with people trying to become more charismatic and charming.
No, not really. Or if it does, that’s an accident. I started doing my intention-announcement when I decided that if I was going to get annoyed at other people wanting me to read their minds, I’d better provide the courtesy I wanted to them. I did not wish to become one of the people whose interpersonal relationships were plagued with arguments that wind up culminating in “Well, why didn’t you just say so?” If I seek praise, I announce it. Other people may or may not care about my seeking, and may or may not indulge my desire. This gives me information about their dispositions towards me, instead of confused feedback that might reflect on either that or their level of telepathic ability.
It’s possible that I’m being unintentionally manipulative, and if that is the case, I would like to stop. If you have suggestions about how I can signify all and only the things I think I’m signifying in my sample statements and statements like them, I’d welcome the input.
For reference, I would find your method to be manipulative. I also don’t think you’re being manipulative on purpose (or at least I don’t have any data to think you are or aren’t).
I don’t think there is a fully general way to request praise without manipulation. It’s going to depend on each person’s life experiences and how they view you.
For reference, I didn’t find it particularly manipulative, though I also don’t appreciate attempts at telepathy.