Just as obviously, we are not talking about uniqueness in that sense.
We seem to be talking past each other. I am saying that each person offers a unique experience of interaction. Some more preferable than others, of course.
Thus, the PUGs who profess to “love all women” state that they wish to have as many of those experiences as possible, and extend their contact with the women who their lifestyle is compatible with.
And AFAICT, their behavior is consistent with this. Soporno claims to have around 30 girlfriends at any one time—all of whom are required to know and accept this fact, or else aren’t allowed to be his girlfriend in the first place.
Rose states that so-called PUAs who only do one-night stands are depriving themselves of the depth and intensity of sexual and emotional intimacy possible in a longer-term relationship… and he also has been involved in “multi LTRs”, though not to the same extent as Soporno.
There’s a British PUG who talks about having dozens of female friends he doesn’t sleep with, but goes clubbing with.. and they help him “chat up” the women he does intend to sleep with. Many other PUGs lecture guys on the importance of genuinely being interested in women and wanting to spend time on them, because if you don’t , then it’s sort of a waste to spend time learning how to talk to them.
Meanwhile, PUG Eben Pagan (stage name “David DeAngelo”, author of the “Double Your Dating” product line) has spoken in his marketing classes about his typical customer really just wanting to know how to talk to a woman and ask her out without being embarrassed… and since his is probably the largest internet dating advice business out there (at $20million annual gross), I would guess that means that most guys buying “pickup” training just want to learn how to talk to someone they’re attracted to without feeling like an idiot… not how to say some magic words and get laid. Other gurus have also noted that most of the men in their classes are looking for “the one”—they just want to know what to say when they meet her, and they know they’re not going to meet her by sitting at home and not talking to anybody.
So, all of this strikes me as a considerable amount of evidence in favor of the proposition that there are a significant number of men who actually do believe each woman is unique, are not primarily interested in one-night stands, and yet also believe in knowing what they’re doing, and/or meeting more than one woman.
I said that womanizers I have known consider women interchangeable, because in their plot to sleep with as many women as possible, they ever so easily substitute one for another when their moves fail on the current target. I said that is not the behavior of someone who thinks every woman is unique.
You said of course they consider all women to be unique, because “If every one is unique, then surely you’d want to meet them all. ”
I pointed out that you’re equivocating on unique, and now you’re changing the topic again.
You said of course they consider all women to be unique
No, I said that the behavior you described is consistent with considering all women to be unique. And it is. It just also happens to be consistent with the behavior of a jerk.
The topic change is that when I made the uniqueness comment, I was talking about womanizers I’ve known, not PUA or famous PUA gurus. Secondly, you keep equivocating on unique. Of course every person offers a unique experience of interaction. They are also all made out of utterly unique particles in utterly different configurations and no two of them have ever precisely occupied the same locations in time-space. That’s all irrelevant for the sense of uniqueness I explained, which has do with behavior and interchangeability.
The way in which I’ve said that womanizers I’ve known do not behave as if women are unique is that when they go out clubbing, if they’re with a bunch of friends, they’re quite willing to draw straws to see which of the potential women they get to chat up, and they hardly care which of many attractive women they get to go home with, as long as they go home with one of them, for they consider them not to be unique in the requisite sense of being attractive and willing to sleep with them. Sure they’re all different, but the differences are irrelevant to them, except possibly as a strategy to use for seducing the woman in question.
That’s all irrelevant for the sense of uniqueness I explained, which has do with behavior and interchangeability.
And you’re still missing my point: the behavior you describe can be generated by many different beliefs or perceptions internal to the person generating the behavior, and you cannot know (unless you ask, or at least perform a more detailed test than the one you’ve desribed) whether the person is willing to meet many different women because he does—or does not—consider them unique.
That is, until you ask, you can’t know whether his thought process is, “Every woman is unique, so no matter who I meet it will be a fun and interesting experience to discover what she’s like,” or else something so crude I won’t render it into actual words here.
What I have been pointing out is that there are people who state, teach, and promote the mindset I have spelled out here. Certainly, there are people of the other mindset, and disagreeable as it might be, I don’t argue with the fact that mindset also exists. You seem to be denying, however, that the more enlightened mindset also exists.
My original point was about particular individuals, womanizers that I’ve had conversations with and one of whom I knew very well.
I’ll agree that womanizing might arise out of thinking every woman is unique in a non-trivial (albeit not necessarily benign) sense, as you have suggested, but my point was that there is a tension between maintaining uniqueness and considering them fungible (even if they’re not totally incompatible). I’m not in the slightest interested in PUA and dating/seduction techniques and related topics, so I don’t have anything more to say on this topic.
We seem to be talking past each other. I am saying that each person offers a unique experience of interaction. Some more preferable than others, of course.
Thus, the PUGs who profess to “love all women” state that they wish to have as many of those experiences as possible, and extend their contact with the women who their lifestyle is compatible with.
And AFAICT, their behavior is consistent with this. Soporno claims to have around 30 girlfriends at any one time—all of whom are required to know and accept this fact, or else aren’t allowed to be his girlfriend in the first place.
Rose states that so-called PUAs who only do one-night stands are depriving themselves of the depth and intensity of sexual and emotional intimacy possible in a longer-term relationship… and he also has been involved in “multi LTRs”, though not to the same extent as Soporno.
There’s a British PUG who talks about having dozens of female friends he doesn’t sleep with, but goes clubbing with.. and they help him “chat up” the women he does intend to sleep with. Many other PUGs lecture guys on the importance of genuinely being interested in women and wanting to spend time on them, because if you don’t , then it’s sort of a waste to spend time learning how to talk to them.
Meanwhile, PUG Eben Pagan (stage name “David DeAngelo”, author of the “Double Your Dating” product line) has spoken in his marketing classes about his typical customer really just wanting to know how to talk to a woman and ask her out without being embarrassed… and since his is probably the largest internet dating advice business out there (at $20million annual gross), I would guess that means that most guys buying “pickup” training just want to learn how to talk to someone they’re attracted to without feeling like an idiot… not how to say some magic words and get laid. Other gurus have also noted that most of the men in their classes are looking for “the one”—they just want to know what to say when they meet her, and they know they’re not going to meet her by sitting at home and not talking to anybody.
So, all of this strikes me as a considerable amount of evidence in favor of the proposition that there are a significant number of men who actually do believe each woman is unique, are not primarily interested in one-night stands, and yet also believe in knowing what they’re doing, and/or meeting more than one woman.
You’re completely changing the topic.
I said that womanizers I have known consider women interchangeable, because in their plot to sleep with as many women as possible, they ever so easily substitute one for another when their moves fail on the current target. I said that is not the behavior of someone who thinks every woman is unique.
You said of course they consider all women to be unique, because “If every one is unique, then surely you’d want to meet them all. ”
I pointed out that you’re equivocating on unique, and now you’re changing the topic again.
No, I said that the behavior you described is consistent with considering all women to be unique. And it is. It just also happens to be consistent with the behavior of a jerk.
How is that changing topic?
The topic change is that when I made the uniqueness comment, I was talking about womanizers I’ve known, not PUA or famous PUA gurus. Secondly, you keep equivocating on unique. Of course every person offers a unique experience of interaction. They are also all made out of utterly unique particles in utterly different configurations and no two of them have ever precisely occupied the same locations in time-space. That’s all irrelevant for the sense of uniqueness I explained, which has do with behavior and interchangeability.
The way in which I’ve said that womanizers I’ve known do not behave as if women are unique is that when they go out clubbing, if they’re with a bunch of friends, they’re quite willing to draw straws to see which of the potential women they get to chat up, and they hardly care which of many attractive women they get to go home with, as long as they go home with one of them, for they consider them not to be unique in the requisite sense of being attractive and willing to sleep with them. Sure they’re all different, but the differences are irrelevant to them, except possibly as a strategy to use for seducing the woman in question.
And you’re still missing my point: the behavior you describe can be generated by many different beliefs or perceptions internal to the person generating the behavior, and you cannot know (unless you ask, or at least perform a more detailed test than the one you’ve desribed) whether the person is willing to meet many different women because he does—or does not—consider them unique.
That is, until you ask, you can’t know whether his thought process is, “Every woman is unique, so no matter who I meet it will be a fun and interesting experience to discover what she’s like,” or else something so crude I won’t render it into actual words here.
What I have been pointing out is that there are people who state, teach, and promote the mindset I have spelled out here. Certainly, there are people of the other mindset, and disagreeable as it might be, I don’t argue with the fact that mindset also exists. You seem to be denying, however, that the more enlightened mindset also exists.
My original point was about particular individuals, womanizers that I’ve had conversations with and one of whom I knew very well.
I’ll agree that womanizing might arise out of thinking every woman is unique in a non-trivial (albeit not necessarily benign) sense, as you have suggested, but my point was that there is a tension between maintaining uniqueness and considering them fungible (even if they’re not totally incompatible). I’m not in the slightest interested in PUA and dating/seduction techniques and related topics, so I don’t have anything more to say on this topic.