Are you suggesting that one simply advertise the existence of good vegetarian recipes without mentioning surrounding reasons for reducing meat?
I agree with Viliam_Bur that this may be effective, and here’s why.
I bake as a hobby (desserts — cakes, pies, etc.). I am not a vegetarian; I find moral arguments for vegetarianism utterly unconvincing and am not interesting in reducing the suffering of animals and so forth.
However, I often like to try new recipes, to expand my repertoire, hone my baking skills, try new things, etc. Sometimes I try out vegan dessert recipes, for the novelty and the challenge of making something that is delicious without containing eggs or dairy or white sugar or any of the usual things that go into making desserts taste good.[1]
More, and more readily available, high-quality vegan dessert recipes would mean that I substitute more vegan dessert dishes for non-vegan ones. This effect would be quite negated if the recipes came bundled with admonitions to become vegan, pro-vegan propaganda, comments about how many animals this recipe saves, etc.; I don’t want to be preached to, which I think is a common attitude.
[1] My other (less salient) motivation for learning to make vegan baked goods is to be prepared if I ever have vegan/vegetarian friends who can’t eat my usual stuff (hasn’t ever been the case so far, but it could happen).
Thanks, this is what I tried to say. Reducing suffering is far, eating well is near.
Also, if a book or a website comes with vegetarian/vegan propaganda, I would assume those people are likely to lie or exaggerate. No propaganda—no suspicion.
This may be just about vegetarians around me, but often people who are into vegetarianism are also into other forms of food limitations, so I often find their food unappealing. They act like an anti-advertisement to vegetarian food. (Perhaps there is an unconscious status motive here: the less people join them, the more noble they are. Which is not how an effective altruist should think.) On the other hand, when I go to some Indian or similar ethnic restaurant, I love the food. It tastes well, it has different components and good spice. I mean, what’s wrong about using spice? If your goal is to reduce animal suffering, nothing. But if your goal is to have a weirdest diet possible (no meat, no cooking, no taste, everything compatible with the latest popular book or your horoscope), spice is usually on the list of forbidden components.
In short, vegetarianism is often not about not eating animals. So if you focus on “good meal (without meat)” part, and ignore the vegetarianism, you may win people like me. Even if I don’t promise to give up meat completely, I can reduce its consumption simply because tasty meals without meat outcompete tasty meals with meat on my table.
This may be just about vegetarians around me, but often people who are into vegetarianism are also into other forms of food limitations
I think I’ve noticed this a bit since switching to a vegan(ish) diet 4 months ago. My guess is that once a person starts making diet restrictions, it becomes much easier to make diet restrictions, and once a person starts learning where their food comes from, it becomes easier to find reasons to make diet restrictions (even dumb reasons).
What were the moral arguments for vegetarianism that you found utterly unconvincing? Where did you hear or read these?
The ones that say we should care about what happens to animals and what animals experience, including arguments from suffering. I’ve heard them in lots of places; the OP has himself posted an example — his own essay “Why Eat Less Meat?”
Are you interested in reducing the suffering of humans?
Yeah.
If so, why?
I think if you unpacked this aspect of my values, you’d find something like “sapient / self-aware beings matter” or “conscious minds that are able to think and reason matter”. That’s more or less how I think about it, though converting that into something rigorous is nontrivial. “Matter” here is used in a broad sense; I care about sapient beings, think that their suffering is wrong, and also consider such beings the appropriate reference class for “veil of ignorance” type arguments, which I find relevant and at least partly convincing.
My caring about reducing human suffering has limits (in more than one dimension). It is not necessarily my highest value, and interacts with my other values in various ways, although I mostly use consequentialism in my moral reasoning and so those interactions are reasonably straightforward for the most part.
Or, what evolutionary difference do you think gives a difference in the ability to experience consciousness at all between humans and other animals with largely similar central nervous systems/brains?
Not as such, no, but animal products are used in its manufacture: bone char is used in the sugar refining process (by some manufacturers, though not all), making it not ok for vegans.
I have not. Christopher Kimball, in The Dessert Bible, comments that unless you can get leaf lard (the highest grade of lard, which comes from the fat around the pig’s kidneys), using lard in dessert recipes is undesirable (results in the dough having a bacon-y taste). I don’t think I can get leaf lard here in NYC, and even if I could it would probably be very expensive.
Oh? Do you know any good places to get it in NYC? (Preferably Brooklyn, Manhattan also fine.)
Yes, brown for white sugar is a good substitution sometimes. However it can partially mute the taste of other ingredients, like fresh fruit, so it’s not always ideal. Also, brown sugar is definitely more expensive.
The internet tells me they don’t carry it, but can special-order it. Mail-order, by the way, looks to come out to $10 / lb., at least., if you can get it; very few places seem to carry it.
You might have to call them; they will special-order just about anything. The only thing I have failed to find there was rabbit ears (without buying the whole rabbit).
I agree with Viliam_Bur that this may be effective, and here’s why.
I bake as a hobby (desserts — cakes, pies, etc.). I am not a vegetarian; I find moral arguments for vegetarianism utterly unconvincing and am not interesting in reducing the suffering of animals and so forth.
However, I often like to try new recipes, to expand my repertoire, hone my baking skills, try new things, etc. Sometimes I try out vegan dessert recipes, for the novelty and the challenge of making something that is delicious without containing eggs or dairy or white sugar or any of the usual things that go into making desserts taste good.[1]
More, and more readily available, high-quality vegan dessert recipes would mean that I substitute more vegan dessert dishes for non-vegan ones. This effect would be quite negated if the recipes came bundled with admonitions to become vegan, pro-vegan propaganda, comments about how many animals this recipe saves, etc.; I don’t want to be preached to, which I think is a common attitude.
[1] My other (less salient) motivation for learning to make vegan baked goods is to be prepared if I ever have vegan/vegetarian friends who can’t eat my usual stuff (hasn’t ever been the case so far, but it could happen).
Thanks, this is what I tried to say. Reducing suffering is far, eating well is near.
Also, if a book or a website comes with vegetarian/vegan propaganda, I would assume those people are likely to lie or exaggerate. No propaganda—no suspicion.
This may be just about vegetarians around me, but often people who are into vegetarianism are also into other forms of food limitations, so I often find their food unappealing. They act like an anti-advertisement to vegetarian food. (Perhaps there is an unconscious status motive here: the less people join them, the more noble they are. Which is not how an effective altruist should think.) On the other hand, when I go to some Indian or similar ethnic restaurant, I love the food. It tastes well, it has different components and good spice. I mean, what’s wrong about using spice? If your goal is to reduce animal suffering, nothing. But if your goal is to have a weirdest diet possible (no meat, no cooking, no taste, everything compatible with the latest popular book or your horoscope), spice is usually on the list of forbidden components.
In short, vegetarianism is often not about not eating animals. So if you focus on “good meal (without meat)” part, and ignore the vegetarianism, you may win people like me. Even if I don’t promise to give up meat completely, I can reduce its consumption simply because tasty meals without meat outcompete tasty meals with meat on my table.
I think I’ve noticed this a bit since switching to a vegan(ish) diet 4 months ago. My guess is that once a person starts making diet restrictions, it becomes much easier to make diet restrictions, and once a person starts learning where their food comes from, it becomes easier to find reasons to make diet restrictions (even dumb reasons).
What were the moral arguments for vegetarianism that you found utterly unconvincing? Where did you hear or read these?
Are you interested in reducing the suffering of humans? If so, why?
The ones that say we should care about what happens to animals and what animals experience, including arguments from suffering. I’ve heard them in lots of places; the OP has himself posted an example — his own essay “Why Eat Less Meat?”
Yeah.
I think if you unpacked this aspect of my values, you’d find something like “sapient / self-aware beings matter” or “conscious minds that are able to think and reason matter”. That’s more or less how I think about it, though converting that into something rigorous is nontrivial. “Matter” here is used in a broad sense; I care about sapient beings, think that their suffering is wrong, and also consider such beings the appropriate reference class for “veil of ignorance” type arguments, which I find relevant and at least partly convincing.
My caring about reducing human suffering has limits (in more than one dimension). It is not necessarily my highest value, and interacts with my other values in various ways, although I mostly use consequentialism in my moral reasoning and so those interactions are reasonably straightforward for the most part.
Do you think that animals can suffer?
Or, what evolutionary difference do you think gives a difference in the ability to experience consciousness at all between humans and other animals with largely similar central nervous systems/brains?
White sugar has animal products in it?
Not as such, no, but animal products are used in its manufacture: bone char is used in the sugar refining process (by some manufacturers, though not all), making it not ok for vegans.
Wow. I learned something that I did not know before :)
I had heard that plenty of times, but I had never bothered to check whether or not that was just an urban legend.
Have you experimented with baking with lard?
I have not. Christopher Kimball, in The Dessert Bible, comments that unless you can get leaf lard (the highest grade of lard, which comes from the fat around the pig’s kidneys), using lard in dessert recipes is undesirable (results in the dough having a bacon-y taste). I don’t think I can get leaf lard here in NYC, and even if I could it would probably be very expensive.
NYC? of course you can. Or mail-order.
But I would start with regular lard in the right recipes.
On a different note, I usually substitute brown sugar for white for the taste.
Oh? Do you know any good places to get it in NYC? (Preferably Brooklyn, Manhattan also fine.)
Yes, brown for white sugar is a good substitution sometimes. However it can partially mute the taste of other ingredients, like fresh fruit, so it’s not always ideal. Also, brown sugar is definitely more expensive.
I would be shocked if Ottomanelli’s on Bleeker didn’t have it leaf lard.
The internet tells me they don’t carry it, but can special-order it. Mail-order, by the way, looks to come out to $10 / lb., at least., if you can get it; very few places seem to carry it.
You might have to call them; they will special-order just about anything. The only thing I have failed to find there was rabbit ears (without buying the whole rabbit).