Nothing can be learned or tested except through sensory experience.
This claim also requires a perspective from which it is identified. The implementation of this perspective is a source of uncertainty if left unexamined.
Thus outside verification is impossible.
There is no need to talk about outside verification. All verification is done from a perspective—it does not limit my argument to assume a ‘sensory experience’ interface for that perspective.
I don’t see how your response supports your claim that ‘experience itself is certain to exist’, which is the claim that I am challenging. Would you try to clarify this for me?
Only one perspective is possible: one’s own perspective. I can’t prove that I experiwnce what I experience to you, but it is self-evident to me. Likewise your experiences must be of manifest reality to you (even if what they represent, if anything, is uncertain to you) unless possibly if you are a NPC.
The map is not the territory. The ‘self-evident’ nature that you identify is a map; it is an artifact of a process. That process, even though it is you in some sense, has only a perspective limited access to what it is to be you.
Within the walls identified by this process you feel justifiably confident in the existence of your experience, in its ‘self-evident’ nature. But yet there is no escape from the territory, which includes the as yet unexamined foundational substrates of your perspective.
Only one perspective is possible: one’s own perspective.
But even one’s own perspective is a dynamic, living and changing perspective; and quite probably it is non-unitary in some ways. We are not locked into the mind we are born with, and the experience that you identify is only a limited and conditional aspect of what goes into the making and modification of the experience of ‘what you think you are’.
Without full access to all possible perspectives of my implementation, how would I know for certain?
I can certainly adopt a perspective that describes how all learning proceeds through my sensory experience. But the identification of this pattern from my adopted limited perspective does not actually exclude other possible perspectives.
I’m not arguing that your model of sensory experience is wrong; I actually believe it has great descriptive value. I’m arguing that it is limited by and dependent on the context from which it appears to emerge.
I am arguing against your claims of certainty, in their various forms.
I believe that the answer depends on the perspective I adopt. This is the answer that makes sense from my current perspective.
If I model what I understand of your perspective within myself I would say that of course all my learning proceeds from some form of sensory experience, other claims are nonsensical.
With another model: The brain structures related to learning depend on more than just sensory experience, they also depend on the action of our DNA, gene networks, the limits of energy availability along with many other factors.
But why does the answer have to sensical from your perspective?
With another model: There is a process called MUP which is imparts knowledge in any form to the human mind. This is a process that by definition is any possible process not included by ‘sensory experience’ as defined by shiftedShapes. In other words MUP is any possible process, or perspective on a process that leads to learning beyond your claims about ‘sensory experience’. Not being about to think of any examples of MUP does not disprove that MUP exists.
This one line response seems generally repetitive to your others. It isn’t obvious to me that you are making an effort to address my challenge to your claim that ‘experience itself is certain to exist’. If you would like to address that please do, otherwise it seems that we are done.
If you attempt to answer my questions honnestly and succinctly I think that you will soon see my point, whereas now we are talking past each other. I appreciate that you have been putting more time into your responses than I have put into mine. Please do not take this as a show of bad faith, likewise I will not adopt the uncharitable interpretation that your responses are drawn-out in an attempt to obfuscate.
If you have a point then lay it out. Set a context, make your claims and challenge mine. Expose your beliefs and accept the risks.
I lay out my claims to you because I want you to challenge them from your perspective. I will not follow your leading questions to your chosen point of philosophical ambush.
There can only be a philosophical ambush if you are more concerned about winning than ascertaining the truth. I have no interest in fighting for its own sake so I will simply wish you well.
This claim also requires a perspective from which it is identified. The implementation of this perspective is a source of uncertainty if left unexamined.
There is no need to talk about outside verification. All verification is done from a perspective—it does not limit my argument to assume a ‘sensory experience’ interface for that perspective.
I don’t see how your response supports your claim that ‘experience itself is certain to exist’, which is the claim that I am challenging. Would you try to clarify this for me?
Only one perspective is possible: one’s own perspective. I can’t prove that I experiwnce what I experience to you, but it is self-evident to me. Likewise your experiences must be of manifest reality to you (even if what they represent, if anything, is uncertain to you) unless possibly if you are a NPC.
The map is not the territory. The ‘self-evident’ nature that you identify is a map; it is an artifact of a process. That process, even though it is you in some sense, has only a perspective limited access to what it is to be you.
Within the walls identified by this process you feel justifiably confident in the existence of your experience, in its ‘self-evident’ nature. But yet there is no escape from the territory, which includes the as yet unexamined foundational substrates of your perspective.
But even one’s own perspective is a dynamic, living and changing perspective; and quite probably it is non-unitary in some ways. We are not locked into the mind we are born with, and the experience that you identify is only a limited and conditional aspect of what goes into the making and modification of the experience of ‘what you think you are’.
Have you learned any of this through a means outside of sensory experience?
Without full access to all possible perspectives of my implementation, how would I know for certain?
I can certainly adopt a perspective that describes how all learning proceeds through my sensory experience. But the identification of this pattern from my adopted limited perspective does not actually exclude other possible perspectives.
I’m not arguing that your model of sensory experience is wrong; I actually believe it has great descriptive value. I’m arguing that it is limited by and dependent on the context from which it appears to emerge.
I am arguing against your claims of certainty, in their various forms.
What do you believe to be the case.
I believe that the answer depends on the perspective I adopt. This is the answer that makes sense from my current perspective.
If I model what I understand of your perspective within myself I would say that of course all my learning proceeds from some form of sensory experience, other claims are nonsensical.
With another model: The brain structures related to learning depend on more than just sensory experience, they also depend on the action of our DNA, gene networks, the limits of energy availability along with many other factors.
But why does the answer have to sensical from your perspective?
With another model: There is a process called MUP which is imparts knowledge in any form to the human mind. This is a process that by definition is any possible process not included by ‘sensory experience’ as defined by shiftedShapes. In other words MUP is any possible process, or perspective on a process that leads to learning beyond your claims about ‘sensory experience’. Not being about to think of any examples of MUP does not disprove that MUP exists.
With another model: Blue hat.
And how did you learn about brains, dna, the concept of a process or blue hat?
This one line response seems generally repetitive to your others. It isn’t obvious to me that you are making an effort to address my challenge to your claim that ‘experience itself is certain to exist’. If you would like to address that please do, otherwise it seems that we are done.
If you attempt to answer my questions honnestly and succinctly I think that you will soon see my point, whereas now we are talking past each other. I appreciate that you have been putting more time into your responses than I have put into mine. Please do not take this as a show of bad faith, likewise I will not adopt the uncharitable interpretation that your responses are drawn-out in an attempt to obfuscate.
If you have a point then lay it out. Set a context, make your claims and challenge mine. Expose your beliefs and accept the risks.
I lay out my claims to you because I want you to challenge them from your perspective. I will not follow your leading questions to your chosen point of philosophical ambush.
There can only be a philosophical ambush if you are more concerned about winning than ascertaining the truth. I have no interest in fighting for its own sake so I will simply wish you well.