It eliminates plausible deniability for ignorance. It doesn’t actually make it more sexist, and it’s arguable whether “saying something sexist on purpose for what one can presume is a halfway decent reason like sharing a neat quote” is worse than “saying something sexist accidentally through carelessness or ignorance or both”.
I do not agree. Without the lampshading the sexist implication (that is, “women are more worthy recipients of love than men are”) is negligible. Claiming that the quote is sexist while saying it increases the extent that this implication is present and so gives men more cause to feel slighted.
I don’t take offence at the possible slight but do find the lamp-shading distasteful.
You say “the sexist implication” like that’s the only one there.
Anyway, drawing attention to a sexist implication doesn’t increase the extent to which it’s present—only the extent to which it’s consciously noticed. The quote would carry on being exactly as sexist as it is without the lampshade. With more conscious noticing, there is both more offense taken and less chance for the statement to have insidious subconscious influence (on which level most -isms operate). Without the lampshade, it could feasibly pass without notice, and join a host of similar statements in the back of the brain that combine to form dispositions that yield more sexist statement. With the lampshade, conscious effort can go into de-sexismifying the statement, or rejecting it whole-cloth, and reduce its long-term effect, even if it makes it more unpleasant to hear in the short term.
After all, this whole discussion on how the lampshading would be perceived turned out to be much more amusing and instructive than the quote itself, which makes me glad that I risked adding it.
Actually, it was more like an act of superego-driven risk-aversion, so I’m twice as glad. More precisely, the lampshading was fruit of spotlight effect of my part, as I quickly fantasized that a great deal of politically correct readers would be outraged by the sexism. But it was more like when you say “Hello, get in, make yourself at home; please don’t notice the mess.”.
You say “the sexist implication” like that’s the only one there.
I say it because it is not the first sexist implication that is consciously noticed, even by me. This is despite being the clearest literal meaning in this instance. I say it because although becoming more aware of the discordance between the politically correct application of ‘sexist’ and ‘sexist’ itself can be frustrating it leads in some small way to eliminating sexist assumptions.
Anyway, drawing attention to a sexist implication doesn’t increase the extent to which it’s present
Not so. I assert that that claiming something is sexist then saying it gives an actual different meaning to the words. Context is important.
For example if the lampshade was replaced with “yeah, this is sexist against da bitches. lolz.” then I would say a different interpretation of sexist implication would be most appropriate.
Obviously if you say “yeah, this is sexist against da bitches. lolz” then you have added sexism to your complete utterance. I don’t think you’ve added sexism to whatever you said before “yeah”.
I don’t think you’ve added sexism to whatever you said before “yeah”.
I disagree fundamentally. I also would not be able to reconcile ascribing sexist (or any other) implications that are not part of the literal meaning while also asserting that the surrounding context can not change meaning. Either the meaning communicated includes subconscious nuances and dispositions or it doesn’t. Those nuances are affected by the context.
Context can affect sexist content. Sure. I just don’t think lampshades are a kind of context that tends to increase sexist content, for reasons described above. If one wants to make what one says more sexist, one can accompany it with action (particular or over time), or elaborate on any potentially sexism-free components of one’s utterance in such a way that they can now be interpreted as sexist where before they were innocuous. Acknowledging that there already existed a particular sexist interpretation of a statement makes that sexism consciously accessible when it might not have been, but doesn’t make it greater in magnitude.
I’m not sure enough to state it categorically, as you have, but his choice of sexist implication to withdraw seemed strange to me as well. The obvious problem to my eyes is that it assumes that the entire possible audience is attracted solely to women.
That one, and not the indication that women are all pretty much alike if you aren’t deluded by an emotional illusion, is the one that jumps out at you?
One can reject the “One True Love” idea without thinking that the members of the relevant sex(es) are pretty much all alike. cf. the excellent Tim Minchin.
Lampshading it doesn’t make it go away. But the quote would work just exactly as well in the other direction, and so it’s not so bad IMO.
Seems to make it worse .
It eliminates plausible deniability for ignorance. It doesn’t actually make it more sexist, and it’s arguable whether “saying something sexist on purpose for what one can presume is a halfway decent reason like sharing a neat quote” is worse than “saying something sexist accidentally through carelessness or ignorance or both”.
I do not agree. Without the lampshading the sexist implication (that is, “women are more worthy recipients of love than men are”) is negligible. Claiming that the quote is sexist while saying it increases the extent that this implication is present and so gives men more cause to feel slighted.
I don’t take offence at the possible slight but do find the lamp-shading distasteful.
You say “the sexist implication” like that’s the only one there.
Anyway, drawing attention to a sexist implication doesn’t increase the extent to which it’s present—only the extent to which it’s consciously noticed. The quote would carry on being exactly as sexist as it is without the lampshade. With more conscious noticing, there is both more offense taken and less chance for the statement to have insidious subconscious influence (on which level most -isms operate). Without the lampshade, it could feasibly pass without notice, and join a host of similar statements in the back of the brain that combine to form dispositions that yield more sexist statement. With the lampshade, conscious effort can go into de-sexismifying the statement, or rejecting it whole-cloth, and reduce its long-term effect, even if it makes it more unpleasant to hear in the short term.
I love this last analysis.
After all, this whole discussion on how the lampshading would be perceived turned out to be much more amusing and instructive than the quote itself, which makes me glad that I risked adding it.
Actually, it was more like an act of superego-driven risk-aversion, so I’m twice as glad. More precisely, the lampshading was fruit of spotlight effect of my part, as I quickly fantasized that a great deal of politically correct readers would be outraged by the sexism. But it was more like when you say “Hello, get in, make yourself at home; please don’t notice the mess.”.
I say it because it is not the first sexist implication that is consciously noticed, even by me. This is despite being the clearest literal meaning in this instance. I say it because although becoming more aware of the discordance between the politically correct application of ‘sexist’ and ‘sexist’ itself can be frustrating it leads in some small way to eliminating sexist assumptions.
Not so. I assert that that claiming something is sexist then saying it gives an actual different meaning to the words. Context is important.
For example if the lampshade was replaced with “yeah, this is sexist against da bitches. lolz.” then I would say a different interpretation of sexist implication would be most appropriate.
Obviously if you say “yeah, this is sexist against da bitches. lolz” then you have added sexism to your complete utterance. I don’t think you’ve added sexism to whatever you said before “yeah”.
I disagree fundamentally. I also would not be able to reconcile ascribing sexist (or any other) implications that are not part of the literal meaning while also asserting that the surrounding context can not change meaning. Either the meaning communicated includes subconscious nuances and dispositions or it doesn’t. Those nuances are affected by the context.
Context can affect sexist content. Sure. I just don’t think lampshades are a kind of context that tends to increase sexist content, for reasons described above. If one wants to make what one says more sexist, one can accompany it with action (particular or over time), or elaborate on any potentially sexism-free components of one’s utterance in such a way that they can now be interpreted as sexist where before they were innocuous. Acknowledging that there already existed a particular sexist interpretation of a statement makes that sexism consciously accessible when it might not have been, but doesn’t make it greater in magnitude.
The implication you’ve mentioned isn’t present, with or without the “lampshading”.
I’m not sure enough to state it categorically, as you have, but his choice of sexist implication to withdraw seemed strange to me as well. The obvious problem to my eyes is that it assumes that the entire possible audience is attracted solely to women.
That one, and not the indication that women are all pretty much alike if you aren’t deluded by an emotional illusion, is the one that jumps out at you?
I read the remark as a cynical retort against the idea of the One True Love, which would make the implication you point out hyperbole, not misogyny.
Barring that interpretation, though, I’ll grant that’s the worse one.
One can reject the “One True Love” idea without thinking that the members of the relevant sex(es) are pretty much all alike. cf. the excellent Tim Minchin.
That I’ll grant you. Minchin > Shaw, here.