The reply is a non-sequitur, because even if one accepted the implied unlikely propsition that no such persons exist or ever have existed, the terminological question would remain.
Your understanding of the “non-sequitur” fallacy is evidently flawed. You asked a question. The answer you got is not only a literally correct answer that follows from the question it is practically speaking the It isn’t non-sequitur. It’s the most appropriate answer to a question that constitutes a rhetorical demand that the reader must generalize from fictional evidence.
But you want another answer as well? Let’s try:
What then do you call someone like the Joker from Batman—someone who cares not at all how they fit into or are perceived by human society
This question does not make sense. The Joker isn’t someone who doesn’t care how they are perceived. He is obsessed with his perception to the extent that he, well, dresses up as the freaking Joker and all of his schemes prioritize displaying the desired image over achievement over pragmatic achievement of whatever end he is seeking. No, he cares a hell of a lot about status and perception and chooses to seek infamy rather than adoration.
except as instrumental to gaining whatever (non-human-relationship-based) thrill or fix they are after?
Thrill seeking fix? That’s a symptom of psychiatric problems for sure, but not particularly sociopathy.
Some labels that could be applied to The Joker: Bipolar, Schizophrenic, Antisocial Personality Disorder. Sociopath doesn’t really capture him but could be added as an adjunct to one (probably two) of those.
Charitable interpretation of komponisto’s comment: ‘If a human didn’t care about social status except instrumentally, what would be the psychiatric classification for them?’ (Charitable interpretation of nshepperd’s comment: ‘Outside of fiction, such people are so vanishingly rare that it’d be pointless to introduce a word for them.’)
Charitable interpretation of komponisto’s comment: ‘If a human didn’t care about social status except instrumentally, what would be the psychiatric classification for them?’ (Charitable interpretation of nshepperd’s comment: ‘Outside of fiction, such people are so vanishingly rare that it’d be pointless to introduce a word for them.’)
I’m afraid the first interpretation is incompatible with this comment (because the Joker reference conveys significant information). Actually, this does qualify as a charitable interpretation of something kompo made elsewhere (grand-neice comment or something). This distinction matters primarily in as much as it means you have given a highly uncharitable interpretation of nshepperd’s comment. By simple substitution it would mean you interpret him as saying:
‘Outside of fiction, [people who do not care about social status except instrumentally] are so vanishingly rare that it’d be pointless to introduce a word for them.’)
Rather than being clearly correct nshepperd becomes probably incorrect. Many (or most) people with autism could fit that description for a start.
Charitable interpretation of komponisto’s comment: ‘If a human didn’t care about social status except instrumentally, what would be the psychiatric classification for them?’
I’m afraid the first interpretation is incompatible with this comment (because the Joker reference conveys significant information).
It was not intended to do so; army1987′s paraphrase is correct.
The thought in my original comment would have been better expressed as: “Sometimes I wonder if the only people who aren’t motivated by status are antisocial.”
It was not intended to do so; army1987′s paraphrase is correct.
This intent does not make the paraphrase correct, even within the scope of ‘charitable’. More to the point, it does prevent the paraphrase of nshepperd’s comment from being uncharitable. Army1987 put words in nsheppard’s mouth that are probably wrong rather than the obviously correct statement he actually made. He described this process as ‘charitable’. It is the reverse.
(I’m not sure if I’m mistaken about the following interpretation and you instead mean that this particular intent doesn’t make the paraphrase (of komponisto’s comment) correct; in that case I’m not following what you are saying at all.)
I expect the intended meaning of “correct” was correspondence with intended meaning. In this sense, the intent is relevant, and it seems that the paraphrase does correspond to the intended meaning as described by komponisto in grandparent.
Army1987 put words in nsheppard’s mouth that are probably wrong rather than the obviously correct statement he actually made.
The grandparent is talking only about army1987′s paraphrase of komponisto’s comment, not about the paraphrase of nsheppard’s comment (which I agree is better described as “uncharitable”), so I’m not seeing the relevance of this statement in a reply to grandparent. (Disagree with some connotations of “obviously correct” in the quote, as the case is not that clear overall, even as it is pretty clear in one sense.)
The statement he actually made—taken literally and ignoring the poor example komponisto had chosen, as the “someone like” makes clear that it was intended to be just an example—is that the word he would use for “someone who cares not at all how they fit into or are perceived by human society, except as instrumental to gaining whatever (non-human-relationship-based) thrill or fix they are after” is “fictional”. How is that “obviously correct”?
It’s the most appropriate answer to a question that constitutes a rhetorical demand that the reader must generalize from fictional evidence. (Last four words hyperlinked.)
There was no demand to “generalize” from fictional evidence, except to recognize the theoretical possibility a sociopathic character who is indifferent to status concerns.
The intended question is whether such characters can exist and if so what’s their diagnosis. Your response “fictional” would be reasonable if you went on to say, “that’s a fiction; such a pathology doesn’t exist in the real world.” Or at least, “It’s atypical” or “it’s rare″; “sociopaths usually go for status.” Or, to go with your revised approach, “psychopaths go for status as they perceive it, but it doesn’t necessarily conform to what other people consider status.” (This approach risks depriving “status” of any meaning beyond “narcissistic gratification.”)
The answer, anyway, is that psychopaths have an exaggerated need to feel superior. When they fail at traditional status seeking, they shift their criteria away from what other people think. They have a sense of grandiosity, but this can have little to do with ordinary social status. Psychopaths are apt to be at both ends of the distribution with regard to seeking the ordinary markers of status.
Objectionable personal psychological interpretation removed at 2:38 p.m.
As far as I can tell, you didn’t know the answer and were oddly embarrassed about your uncertainty.
That’s an untenable interpretation of the written words and plain rude. (Claiming to have) mind read negative beliefs and motives in others then declaring them publicly tends to be frowned upon. Certainly it is frowned upon me.
Your understanding of the “non-sequitur” fallacy is evidently flawed. You asked a question. The answer you got is not only a literally correct answer that follows from the question it is practically speaking the It isn’t non-sequitur. It’s the most appropriate answer to a question that constitutes a rhetorical demand that the reader must generalize from fictional evidence.
But you want another answer as well? Let’s try:
This question does not make sense. The Joker isn’t someone who doesn’t care how they are perceived. He is obsessed with his perception to the extent that he, well, dresses up as the freaking Joker and all of his schemes prioritize displaying the desired image over achievement over pragmatic achievement of whatever end he is seeking. No, he cares a hell of a lot about status and perception and chooses to seek infamy rather than adoration.
Thrill seeking fix? That’s a symptom of psychiatric problems for sure, but not particularly sociopathy.
Some labels that could be applied to The Joker: Bipolar, Schizophrenic, Antisocial Personality Disorder. Sociopath doesn’t really capture him but could be added as an adjunct to one (probably two) of those.
Charitable interpretation of komponisto’s comment: ‘If a human didn’t care about social status except instrumentally, what would be the psychiatric classification for them?’ (Charitable interpretation of nshepperd’s comment: ‘Outside of fiction, such people are so vanishingly rare that it’d be pointless to introduce a word for them.’)
I’m afraid the first interpretation is incompatible with this comment (because the Joker reference conveys significant information). Actually, this does qualify as a charitable interpretation of something kompo made elsewhere (grand-neice comment or something). This distinction matters primarily in as much as it means you have given a highly uncharitable interpretation of nshepperd’s comment. By simple substitution it would mean you interpret him as saying:
Rather than being clearly correct nshepperd becomes probably incorrect. Many (or most) people with autism could fit that description for a start.
It was not intended to do so; army1987′s paraphrase is correct.
The thought in my original comment would have been better expressed as: “Sometimes I wonder if the only people who aren’t motivated by status are antisocial.”
This intent does not make the paraphrase correct, even within the scope of ‘charitable’. More to the point, it does prevent the paraphrase of nshepperd’s comment from being uncharitable. Army1987 put words in nsheppard’s mouth that are probably wrong rather than the obviously correct statement he actually made. He described this process as ‘charitable’. It is the reverse.
I was talking about my comment only; I make no claim that army1987′s paraphrase of nshepperd’s comment is likewise accurate.
(I’m not sure if I’m mistaken about the following interpretation and you instead mean that this particular intent doesn’t make the paraphrase (of komponisto’s comment) correct; in that case I’m not following what you are saying at all.)
I expect the intended meaning of “correct” was correspondence with intended meaning. In this sense, the intent is relevant, and it seems that the paraphrase does correspond to the intended meaning as described by komponisto in grandparent.
The grandparent is talking only about army1987′s paraphrase of komponisto’s comment, not about the paraphrase of nsheppard’s comment (which I agree is better described as “uncharitable”), so I’m not seeing the relevance of this statement in a reply to grandparent. (Disagree with some connotations of “obviously correct” in the quote, as the case is not that clear overall, even as it is pretty clear in one sense.)
The statement he actually made—taken literally and ignoring the poor example komponisto had chosen, as the “someone like” makes clear that it was intended to be just an example—is that the word he would use for “someone who cares not at all how they fit into or are perceived by human society, except as instrumental to gaining whatever (non-human-relationship-based) thrill or fix they are after” is “fictional”. How is that “obviously correct”?
There was no demand to “generalize” from fictional evidence, except to recognize the theoretical possibility a sociopathic character who is indifferent to status concerns.
The intended question is whether such characters can exist and if so what’s their diagnosis. Your response “fictional” would be reasonable if you went on to say, “that’s a fiction; such a pathology doesn’t exist in the real world.” Or at least, “It’s atypical” or “it’s rare″; “sociopaths usually go for status.” Or, to go with your revised approach, “psychopaths go for status as they perceive it, but it doesn’t necessarily conform to what other people consider status.” (This approach risks depriving “status” of any meaning beyond “narcissistic gratification.”)
The answer, anyway, is that psychopaths have an exaggerated need to feel superior. When they fail at traditional status seeking, they shift their criteria away from what other people think. They have a sense of grandiosity, but this can have little to do with ordinary social status. Psychopaths are apt to be at both ends of the distribution with regard to seeking the ordinary markers of status.
Objectionable personal psychological interpretation removed at 2:38 p.m.
Thankyou.
That’s an untenable interpretation of the written words and plain rude. (Claiming to have) mind read negative beliefs and motives in others then declaring them publicly tends to be frowned upon. Certainly it is frowned upon me.
The simplest minimally charitable interpretation of the remark seems to be saying that in a slightly snarky fashion.
In my humble opinion, snarkiness is a form of rudeness, and we should dispense with it here.
Moreover, since we have a politeness norm, it isn’t so clear that the interpretation you offer is charitable!