That man was removed from the plane because he Tweeted about the gate agent he was arguing with, publicly mentioning her name and the gate she was working at. Duff Watson, the man in that article you linked, mentioned the staff person’s name and location.
That’s not really a fitting comparison to what I am proposing. That cannot be used to say “But there is a single example of this occurring” ( i.e an instantiation ).
I am proposing a common sense, applicable solution in the case that someone finds themselves unable to perform certain tasks on a flight because the person in front of them is reclining.
Also, they can complain to the airline as well. There you go. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor did my original post explicitly advise against this.
That man was removed from the plane because he Tweeted about the gate agent he was arguing with, publicly mentioning her name and the gate she was working at. Duff Watson, the man in that article you linked, mentioned the staff person’s name and location.
Yes? And? Why should that result in expulsion from the flight?
You have totally missed the point of my link/example, which is that airlines can and do kick you off a flight for things that seem like very innocuous, harmless things—things that you never imagine would result in your expulsion. Can you predict with any great certainty that you won’t get kicked off a plane for harassing a fellow passenger? You absolutely cannot.
(Are you tempted to claim that your proposed actions don’t constitute harassment? And you’re probably right: your actual actions, as perceived by you, probably can’t be called harassment by a reasonable person. What about your actions as reported by the other passenger, as those actions are perceived by said other passenger? Are those actions harassment? Sure they are, once the other person says “the person behind me angrily demanded that I not recline; they spoke to me in a very threatening tone of voice; I feel very unsafe sharing a flight with this person”. Then the flight attendant asks you: “sir/madam, did you speak to the passenger in front of you about not reclining their seat?”; you say “yes”; now you’ve admitted to doing what you’re accused of. Would an airline kick you off for that? Easily, and don’t even doubt it.)
Also, they can complain to the airline as well. There you go. The two are not mutually exclusive
As well? As well as what? The recliner complaining is what I was talking about.
(Or do you mean that the person behind the recliner should complain? But what would be the complaint? “The person in front of me reclined their seat”? They have a right to do that. The flight attendant would judge you to be the troublemaker, for that complaint. In other words, you lose if you complain, and you also lose if the other person complains about your attempted resolution.)
Yes? And? Why should that result in expulsion from the flight?
You have totally missed the point of my link/example, which is that airlines can and do kick you off a flight for things that seem like very innocuous, harmless things—things that you never imagine would result in your expulsion. Can you predict with any great certainty that you won’t get kicked off a plane for harassing a fellow passenger? You absolutely cannot.
You are, at this point, not arguing with any good faith.
First, there are obvious, substantial differences between my post and your example.
Second, my original post, if read with the least possible charity, was not advocating for harassment. I wrote “Third, be polite. Some people recline. Regardless of what’s right in a Kantian sense, not everyone’s a Kantian, so just be nice. I know you may think the guy is a jerk, whatever.”
you say “yes”; now you’ve admitted to doing what you’re accused of. Would an airline kick you off for that? Easily, and don’t even doubt it.)
Thanks bud, but I’ll keep doubting this one.
There would be other passengers, in the least. This is really such a silly argument at this point. No airline is going to remove you for asking someone to un-recline their seat a few times.
As well? As well as what? The recliner complaining is what I was talking about.
As well as working towards a normal human compromise with the other passenger.
“The person in front of me reclined their seat”? They have a right to do that.
They have the right to do this so long as the aircraft materially allows it and the airline’s T&C’s contractually allow it.
I’m not going to waste my time working this out. You could make a request for some kind of change so that reclining is less easy, a person cannot recline as much, blah blah.
I think that other people consider this example as a means to discuss some far more abstract ideas of what is morally right in the situation. This was mentioned in my post as:
Is it appropriate for any person to recline their seat?
To which I said that there is a definite right answer to this question, based on the optimization of some dimension. This is always what is behind morality, in any case—It is just a rule for optimizing something, whether it be autonomy, privacy, etc.
What I should have also said here is that there is absolutely no way anyone is answering this question here. Furthermore, in the circumstance you find yourself reclining upon someone that does not want you to recline or vice versa, the answer to this question does not really matter.
In real, lived life your goal should not be to cause such a stir up in trivial situations like these. It doesn’t matter who is correct in mathematical or philosophical sense. So if someone reclines unto you, ask a few times if they would un-recline a bit. Ask them a few times, but stay polite. If it’s the opposite case, tell them you’ll meet them half way.
I know that people may not see this as the point of the thread. Maybe I’m out of the loop, maybe I’m making something simple that should really be complicated.
Depending on how they act, I might (if I were to fly in a plane) cause enough stirrup to stand up for my rights, taking into account the calculated risk of ending up worse off. There is an externality of signalling to other people what my (and their) rights are, which has additional positive value.
If someone suggested the idea of reducing your recline by 50% politely, would you really, in actual lived life, reply making a protest of your “rights”?
I implore you to really think of what this would be like in real life. Someone nicely asking for this. It’s a long flight.
Also, to consider the views of other people here and the positive effects of your signaling is speculative at best. You don’t know how people will perceive you. Sure, you think you are standing up for what is obviously you right. You have no way to verify this is what other’s believe though.
That just seems like something rather shaky to consider a positive externality. Alternatively, you could maybe make the case that there is always value to protecting your rights, a la MLK’s famous “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”, and I would salute your courage to die on that hill, as you surely would die.
I, like, I assume, everyone else, occasionally encounter situations of having to speak up in very uncomfortable situations, in “actual lived life.” In this hypothetical situation, I’d probably reduce my recline. I’d speak up if they reclined into me too much, leaving me not enough space.
We never know how other people will perceive us, or the consequences (or, for that matter, what’s right) with certainty. But the null decision (or the decision to do whatever causes the least stirrup) is a decision as well—namely, it’s a decision saying “the balance of evidence is such that I believe the right thing to do is to cause the least stirrup possible” (assuming the idealized case of an agent who optimizes for doing what is right).
That man was removed from the plane because he Tweeted about the gate agent he was arguing with, publicly mentioning her name and the gate she was working at. Duff Watson, the man in that article you linked, mentioned the staff person’s name and location.
That’s not really a fitting comparison to what I am proposing. That cannot be used to say “But there is a single example of this occurring” ( i.e an instantiation ).
I am proposing a common sense, applicable solution in the case that someone finds themselves unable to perform certain tasks on a flight because the person in front of them is reclining.
Also, they can complain to the airline as well. There you go. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor did my original post explicitly advise against this.
Yes? And? Why should that result in expulsion from the flight?
You have totally missed the point of my link/example, which is that airlines can and do kick you off a flight for things that seem like very innocuous, harmless things—things that you never imagine would result in your expulsion. Can you predict with any great certainty that you won’t get kicked off a plane for harassing a fellow passenger? You absolutely cannot.
(Are you tempted to claim that your proposed actions don’t constitute harassment? And you’re probably right: your actual actions, as perceived by you, probably can’t be called harassment by a reasonable person. What about your actions as reported by the other passenger, as those actions are perceived by said other passenger? Are those actions harassment? Sure they are, once the other person says “the person behind me angrily demanded that I not recline; they spoke to me in a very threatening tone of voice; I feel very unsafe sharing a flight with this person”. Then the flight attendant asks you: “sir/madam, did you speak to the passenger in front of you about not reclining their seat?”; you say “yes”; now you’ve admitted to doing what you’re accused of. Would an airline kick you off for that? Easily, and don’t even doubt it.)
As well? As well as what? The recliner complaining is what I was talking about.
(Or do you mean that the person behind the recliner should complain? But what would be the complaint? “The person in front of me reclined their seat”? They have a right to do that. The flight attendant would judge you to be the troublemaker, for that complaint. In other words, you lose if you complain, and you also lose if the other person complains about your attempted resolution.)
You are, at this point, not arguing with any good faith.
First, there are obvious, substantial differences between my post and your example.
Second, my original post, if read with the least possible charity, was not advocating for harassment. I wrote “Third, be polite. Some people recline. Regardless of what’s right in a Kantian sense, not everyone’s a Kantian, so just be nice. I know you may think the guy is a jerk, whatever.”
Thanks bud, but I’ll keep doubting this one.
There would be other passengers, in the least. This is really such a silly argument at this point. No airline is going to remove you for asking someone to un-recline their seat a few times.
As well as working towards a normal human compromise with the other passenger.
They have the right to do this so long as the aircraft materially allows it and the airline’s T&C’s contractually allow it.
I’m not going to waste my time working this out. You could make a request for some kind of change so that reclining is less easy, a person cannot recline as much, blah blah.
This discussion seems to be about whether it’s moral, not about whether it’s technically possible/allowed by the terms.
This isn’t enough to establish it’s right—it’s easy to imagine many things that are materially possible and contractually allowed, but morally wrong.
That’s not a bad point.
I think that other people consider this example as a means to discuss some far more abstract ideas of what is morally right in the situation. This was mentioned in my post as:
To which I said that there is a definite right answer to this question, based on the optimization of some dimension. This is always what is behind morality, in any case—It is just a rule for optimizing something, whether it be autonomy, privacy, etc.
What I should have also said here is that there is absolutely no way anyone is answering this question here. Furthermore, in the circumstance you find yourself reclining upon someone that does not want you to recline or vice versa, the answer to this question does not really matter.
In real, lived life your goal should not be to cause such a stir up in trivial situations like these. It doesn’t matter who is correct in mathematical or philosophical sense. So if someone reclines unto you, ask a few times if they would un-recline a bit. Ask them a few times, but stay polite. If it’s the opposite case, tell them you’ll meet them half way.
I know that people may not see this as the point of the thread. Maybe I’m out of the loop, maybe I’m making something simple that should really be complicated.
Doing whatever leads to avoiding causing a stirrup is definitely one of the options.
What are some reasonable alternatives in the circumstance that someone is reclining unto your or requesting you un-recline?
Depending on how they act, I might (if I were to fly in a plane) cause enough stirrup to stand up for my rights, taking into account the calculated risk of ending up worse off. There is an externality of signalling to other people what my (and their) rights are, which has additional positive value.
How would they have to act for this to happen?
If someone suggested the idea of reducing your recline by 50% politely, would you really, in actual lived life, reply making a protest of your “rights”?
I implore you to really think of what this would be like in real life. Someone nicely asking for this. It’s a long flight.
Also, to consider the views of other people here and the positive effects of your signaling is speculative at best. You don’t know how people will perceive you. Sure, you think you are standing up for what is obviously you right. You have no way to verify this is what other’s believe though.
That just seems like something rather shaky to consider a positive externality. Alternatively, you could maybe make the case that there is always value to protecting your rights, a la MLK’s famous “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”, and I would salute your courage to die on that hill, as you surely would die.
I, like, I assume, everyone else, occasionally encounter situations of having to speak up in very uncomfortable situations, in “actual lived life.” In this hypothetical situation, I’d probably reduce my recline. I’d speak up if they reclined into me too much, leaving me not enough space.
We never know how other people will perceive us, or the consequences (or, for that matter, what’s right) with certainty. But the null decision (or the decision to do whatever causes the least stirrup) is a decision as well—namely, it’s a decision saying “the balance of evidence is such that I believe the right thing to do is to cause the least stirrup possible” (assuming the idealized case of an agent who optimizes for doing what is right).