I’ve done some classroom teaching, and I’ve seen how other students react to students who behave similarly (eye rolling, snickering, etc.) I’ve also seen this from the student side, people like to heap scorn on students who act like this (when they aren’t around.)
To be clear, I’m not saying everything PUA’s say is nonsense. They’ve said so much that by sheer random chance some of it is probably good. But most of PUA stuff is terrible armchair theorizing by internet people who seem very angry at women.
ETA: It’s interesting how much of a perspective change classroom teaching gives you. In a typical classroom, students can’t easily see the faces of most of their peers, and their peers reveal a lot because of this.
I’ve done some classroom teaching, and I’ve seen how other students react to students who behave similarly (eye rolling, snickering, etc.) I’ve also seen this from the student side, people like to heap scorn on students who act like this (when they aren’t around.)
It depends on, among other things, how much the students like the lecturer and what kind of subject is being taught (I gather that honesty is valued more, and politeness less, in the hard sciences than in humanities).
To be clear, I’m not saying everything PUA’s say is nonsense. They’ve said so much that by sheer random chance some of it is probably good. But most of PUA stuff is terrible armchair theorizing by internet people who seem very angry at women.
PUA isn’t the only thing that Sturgeon’s Law applies to, though.
I’ve done some classroom teaching, and I’ve seen how other students react to students who behave similarly (eye rolling, snickering, etc.) I’ve also seen this from the student side, people like to heap scorn on students who act like this (when they aren’t around.)
My experience classroom teaching suggests two things:
Hesperidia’s cocky laughter is not the sort of thing that makes students heap scorn on other students except, perhaps, the most sycophantic teacher’s pets or sometimes among cliques of less secure rivals who want to reassure each other.
The behaviours knb is equivocating with are not the same thing. They have different social meaning and different expected results. While for knb the most salient factor may be that each of those behaviours signals lack of respect for authority not all things that potentially lower the status of the teacher are equal or equivalent. Amused laughter that is not stifled by attention is not the same thing as eye rolling.
I agree with your implicature and wonder whether we have correctly resolved the ambiguity in ‘nonsense’. It seems it could either mean “It is not the case that this would raise his chance of getting laid” or “It is not the case that chance of getting laid is sufficiently correlated with social status as to be at all relevant as a measure thereof”. I honestly don’t know which one is the most charitable reading because I consider them approximately equally as wrong.
As an aside, my motive for throwing in ‘chance of getting laid’ was that often ‘status’ is considered too ephemeral or abstract and I wanted to put things in terms that are clearly falsifiable. It also helps distinguish between different kinds of status and the different overlapping social hierarchies. The action in question is (obviously?) most usefully targeted at the “peer group” hierarchy than the “academia prestige” hierarchy. If you intend to become a grad student in that university’s philosophy department silence is preferred to cocky laughter. If you intend to just complete the subject and and continue study in some other area while achieving social goals with peers (including getting high quality partners for future group work) then the cocky laughter will be more useful than silence.
“It is not the case that chance of getting laid is sufficiently correlated with social status as to be at all relevant as a measure thereof”
Is social status the only thing you care about when in a classroom?
And “sufficiently correlated” isn’t good enough, per Goodhart’s law. You can improve your chances of getting laid even more by getting drunk in a night club in a major city, and you can bring them close to 1 by paying a prostitute.
Is social status the only thing you care about when in a classroom?
It’s a minor concern, often below getting rest, immediate sense of boredom or the audiobook I’m listening to. I’m certainly neither a model student (with respect to things like lecture attendance and engagement as opposed to grades) nor a particularly dedicated status optimiser.
I think you must have interpreted my words differently than I intended them. I would not expect that reply if the meaning had come across clearly but I am not quite sure where the confusion is.
And “sufficiently correlated” isn’t good enough, per Goodhart’s law. You can improve your chances of getting laid even more by getting drunk in a night club in a major city, and you can bring them close to 1 by paying a prostitute.
I think there must be some miscommunication here. There is a difference between considering a metric to be somewhat useful as a means of evaluating something and outright replacing one’s preferences with a lost purpose. I had thought we were talking about the first of these. The quote you made includes ‘at all relevant’ (a low standard) and in the context was merely a rejection of the claim ‘nonsense’.
I think you must have interpreted my words differently than I intended them. I would not expect that reply if the meaning had come across clearly but I am not quite sure where the confusion is.
So, you said:
He ‘should’ feel embarassment if the if interfered with his social goals in the context. All things considered it most likely did not, (assuming he did not immediately signal humiliation and submission, which it appears he didn’t).
ISTM this doesn’t follow unless you assume he had no goals other than social ones that his burst of laughter could have interfered with; am I missing something?
I think there must be some miscommunication here. There is a difference between considering a metric to be somewhat useful as a means of evaluating something and outright replacing one’s preferences with a lost purpose. I had thought we were talking about the first of these. The quote you made includes ‘at all relevant’ (a low standard) and in the context was merely a rejection of the claim ‘nonsense’.
ISTM this doesn’t follow unless you assume he had no goals other than social ones that his burst of laughter could have interfered with; am I missing something?
Ahh, pardon me. I was replying at that time to the statement “You should be embarrassed by this story.”, where embarrassment is something I would describe as an emotional response to realising that you made a social blunder. It occurs to me now that I could have better conveyed my intended meaning if I included the other words inside my quotation marks like:
He “should feel embarrassment” if the if interfered with his social goals in the context.
Thank you for explaining. I was quite confused about what wasn’t working in that communication.
So?
Why do you think it did not raise his chance of getting laid?
I’ve done some classroom teaching, and I’ve seen how other students react to students who behave similarly (eye rolling, snickering, etc.) I’ve also seen this from the student side, people like to heap scorn on students who act like this (when they aren’t around.)
To be clear, I’m not saying everything PUA’s say is nonsense. They’ve said so much that by sheer random chance some of it is probably good. But most of PUA stuff is terrible armchair theorizing by internet people who seem very angry at women.
ETA: It’s interesting how much of a perspective change classroom teaching gives you. In a typical classroom, students can’t easily see the faces of most of their peers, and their peers reveal a lot because of this.
It depends on, among other things, how much the students like the lecturer and what kind of subject is being taught (I gather that honesty is valued more, and politeness less, in the hard sciences than in humanities).
PUA isn’t the only thing that Sturgeon’s Law applies to, though.
My experience classroom teaching suggests two things:
Hesperidia’s cocky laughter is not the sort of thing that makes students heap scorn on other students except, perhaps, the most sycophantic teacher’s pets or sometimes among cliques of less secure rivals who want to reassure each other.
The behaviours knb is equivocating with are not the same thing. They have different social meaning and different expected results. While for knb the most salient factor may be that each of those behaviours signals lack of respect for authority not all things that potentially lower the status of the teacher are equal or equivalent. Amused laughter that is not stifled by attention is not the same thing as eye rolling.
I agree with your implicature and wonder whether we have correctly resolved the ambiguity in ‘nonsense’. It seems it could either mean “It is not the case that this would raise his chance of getting laid” or “It is not the case that chance of getting laid is sufficiently correlated with social status as to be at all relevant as a measure thereof”. I honestly don’t know which one is the most charitable reading because I consider them approximately equally as wrong.
As an aside, my motive for throwing in ‘chance of getting laid’ was that often ‘status’ is considered too ephemeral or abstract and I wanted to put things in terms that are clearly falsifiable. It also helps distinguish between different kinds of status and the different overlapping social hierarchies. The action in question is (obviously?) most usefully targeted at the “peer group” hierarchy than the “academia prestige” hierarchy. If you intend to become a grad student in that university’s philosophy department silence is preferred to cocky laughter. If you intend to just complete the subject and and continue study in some other area while achieving social goals with peers (including getting high quality partners for future group work) then the cocky laughter will be more useful than silence.
Is social status the only thing you care about when in a classroom?
And “sufficiently correlated” isn’t good enough, per Goodhart’s law. You can improve your chances of getting laid even more by getting drunk in a night club in a major city, and you can bring them close to 1 by paying a prostitute.
It’s a minor concern, often below getting rest, immediate sense of boredom or the audiobook I’m listening to. I’m certainly neither a model student (with respect to things like lecture attendance and engagement as opposed to grades) nor a particularly dedicated status optimiser.
I think you must have interpreted my words differently than I intended them. I would not expect that reply if the meaning had come across clearly but I am not quite sure where the confusion is.
I think there must be some miscommunication here. There is a difference between considering a metric to be somewhat useful as a means of evaluating something and outright replacing one’s preferences with a lost purpose. I had thought we were talking about the first of these. The quote you made includes ‘at all relevant’ (a low standard) and in the context was merely a rejection of the claim ‘nonsense’.
So, you said:
ISTM this doesn’t follow unless you assume he had no goals other than social ones that his burst of laughter could have interfered with; am I missing something?
OK, I see it now.
Ahh, pardon me. I was replying at that time to the statement “You should be embarrassed by this story.”, where embarrassment is something I would describe as an emotional response to realising that you made a social blunder. It occurs to me now that I could have better conveyed my intended meaning if I included the other words inside my quotation marks like:
Thank you for explaining. I was quite confused about what wasn’t working in that communication.