I don’t think you answered my question: what’s the underlying principle?
I agree that it is generally best for people who, perhaps on account of being very young, are not able to survive effectively by making their own decisions to obey the people taking care of them. But I’m not sure this is best understood as a moral obligation, and surely sometimes it’s a mistake—some parents and other carers are, one way or another, very bad indeed. And Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Genesis narrative don’t seem to have been anything like as incapable as you were when you had no idea why scribbling in one book might be worse than scribbling in another.
But let’s run with your analogy for a moment, and suppose that in fact Adam and Eve were as incompetent as toddler-you, and needed to be fenced about with incomprehensible absolute prohibitions whose real reasons they couldn’t understand. Would your parents have put toddler-you in a room with a big red button that launches the missiles, sternly told you not to push it, and then left you alone? If they had, what would you think of someone who said “oh, it’s all CCC’s fault that the world is a smoking ruin. He pushed that button even though his parents told him not to.”?
a cautionary tale for small children
It certainly makes more sense that way than as history. But even so, it comes down to something like this: “Remember, kids! If you disobey your parents’ arbitrary instructions, they’re likely to throw you out of the house.” Ah, the piercing moral insight of the holy scriptures.
on that day your death will become inevitable
That’s an interpretation sometimes put on the text by people with a strong prior commitment to not letting the text have mistakes in it. But does what it says actually admit that interpretation? I’m going entirely off translations—I know maybe ten words of Hebrew—but it sure looks to me as if God says, simply and straightforwardly, that eating the fruit means dying the same day. Taking it to mean “your death will become inevitable” or “you will die spiritually” or something of the kind seems to me like rationalization.
But, again, I don’t know Hebrew and maybe “in that day you will surely die” really can mean “in that day it will become sure that on another day you will die”. Anyone want to enlighten me further?
I don’t think you answered my question: what’s the underlying principle?
I’m not actually sure.
I do think that there’s really incredibly good evidence that the Adam and Eve story is not literal, that it’s rather meant as a fable, to illustrate some important point. (It may be some sort of heavily mythological coating over an internal grain of historical truth, but if so, then it’s pretty deeply buried).
I’m not entirely sure what that point is. Part of it may be “the rules are there for a reason, don’t break them unless you’re really sure”. Part of it may be intended for children—“listen to your parents, they know better than you”. (And yes, some parents are bad news; but, by and large, the advice “listen to your parents” is very good advice for toddlers, because most parents care about their toddlers).
And Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Genesis narrative don’t seem to have been anything like as incapable as you were when you had no idea why scribbling in one book might be worse than scribbling in another.
I do wonder, though—how old were they supposed to be? It seems that they were created in adult bodies, and gifted from creation with the ability to speak, but they may well have had a toddler’s naivete.
Would your parents have put toddler-you in a room with a big red button that launches the missiles, sternly told you not to push it, and then left you alone?
Not if they had any option.
If they had, what would you think of someone who said “oh, it’s all CCC’s fault that the world is a smoking ruin. He pushed that button even though his parents told him not to.”?
Toddler-me would probably have expected that reaction. Current-me would consider putting toddler-me in that room to be horrendously irresponsible.
It certainly makes more sense that way than as history. But even so, it comes down to something like this: “Remember, kids! If you disobey your parents’ arbitrary instructions, they’re likely to throw you out of the house.” Ah, the piercing moral insight of the holy scriptures.
I see it as more “obey your parents, or you’re going to really hate what comes next”. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty broadly applicable.
on that day your death will become inevitable
That’s an interpretation sometimes put on the text by people with a strong prior commitment to not letting the text have mistakes in it. But does what it says actually admit that interpretation?
If you know ten words of Hebrew, then you know ten more words of Hebrew than I do.
there’s really incredibly good evidence that the Adam and Eve story is not literal
Do you mean there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true, or there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not intended literally? I agree with the former but am unconvinced by the latter. (But, for the avoidance of doubt, I have absolutely zero problems with Christians or Jews not taking it literally; I was among their number for many years.)
ten words of Hebrew
I started writing a list and realised that maybe the figure is more like 30; the words I know are all in dribs and drabs from various sources, and I’d forgotten a few sources. I suspect you actually know at least some of the same ones I do. (Some likely examples: shalom, shema, adam.) Of course the actual point here is that neither of us knows Hebrew, so we’re both guessing about what it means to say (as commonly translated into English) “in the day that you eat it, you shall surely die”.
Do you mean there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true, or there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not intended literally?
I think there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true, and (at least) very good evidence that it’s not intended literally. I consider the fact that there is incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true to, in and of itself, be pretty good evidence that it’s not intended literally..
I started writing a list and realised that maybe the figure is more like 30; the words I know are all in dribs and drabs from various sources, and I’d forgotten a few sources. I suspect you actually know at least some of the same ones I do. (Some likely examples: shalom, shema, adam.)
Shalom—I think that’s “peace”, right? I’m not sure. I don’t know shema at all, and adam I know only as the name of the first man.
So, it seems I know more Hebrew than I thought; but nonetheless, you are perfectly correct about the point.
Yup, shalom is peace. (Related to salaam in Arabic.) I thought you might know shema from the famous declaration of monotheism, which goes something like Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, adonai ekhad”, meaning “Hear, Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one”. (It comes from Deuteronomy, and is used liturgically.) I think adam* actually means “man” as well as being the name of the first one.
There are some other Hebrew words you might know because they’re used to make Biblical names; e.g., Isaac = Yitzhak and means something like “he laughs”, which you might remember from the relevant bit in the Bible. (I think I remember you saying you’re a Christian, which is why I thought you might know some of those.)
I thought you might know shema from the famous declaration of monotheism, which goes something like Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, adonai ekhad, meaning “Hear, Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one”. (It comes from Deuteronomy, and is used liturgically.)
I don’t think I’m personally familiar with that phrase.
I think adam actually means “man” as well as being the name of the first one.
That makes sense. I think I recall seeing a footnote to that effect.
...if I had a perfect memory, I probably would know a lot more Hebrew than I do. I’ve seen the derivations of a lot of Biblical names, I just haven’t really thought of them as being particularly important enough to memorise. There are plenty of things about Isaac more important than the etymology of his name, after all.
Understood, and I hope I didn’t give the impression that I think anyone is obliged to remember this sort of thing. (It happens that my brain grabs onto such things pretty effortlessly, which I guess is partial compensation for the other things it’s rubbish at.)
I consider the fact that there is incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true to, in and of itself, be pretty good evidence that it’s not intended literally.
How good that evidence is depends on whether the incredibly good evidence was available to (and incredibly good evidence for) the original writers.
A lot of the best reasons for thinking that the early chapters of Genesis are not literally true were (so far as anyone knows) completely unknown when those chapters were written.
According to Genesis 2 verse 10-14, the Garden was watered by a stream, which later split into four rivers. Two of those have, according to a brief Google search, gone missing in the time since Genesis was written, but the Tigris and the Euphrates would have been well known, even then. So checking up on Eden would have simply required heading up one of those rivers.
...which, now that I think about it, would have required someone willing to leave home for perhaps several days at a time and travel into the unknown, just to see what’s there.
checking up on Eden would have simply required heading up one of those rivers.
Nah. If you head up those rivers and don’t find Eden, the obvious conclusion is just that God removed it some time after Adam and Eve left because it was surplus to requirements. It doesn’t (at least not obviously, so far as I can see) refute the Genesis story.
Genesis says it was protected by an angel with a flaming sword. I think it might be reasonable not to expect to find the Garden… but one could expect to find the angel with the flaming sword. After all, if something’s there as security, it’s generally put where unauthorised people can find it.
It’s not an obvious refutation, but it’s more likely the result of a non-literal than a literal Garden of Eden.
If Eden was removed as surplus to requirements, so presumably was the angel. And this all seems like such an obvious thing for an Eden-literalist to say after trekking up the river and finding nothing that I really don’t see how the (then) present-day absence of the GoE and angel could possibly have been much evidence against a literal Eden.
I don’t think you answered my question: what’s the underlying principle?
I agree that it is generally best for people who, perhaps on account of being very young, are not able to survive effectively by making their own decisions to obey the people taking care of them. But I’m not sure this is best understood as a moral obligation, and surely sometimes it’s a mistake—some parents and other carers are, one way or another, very bad indeed. And Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Genesis narrative don’t seem to have been anything like as incapable as you were when you had no idea why scribbling in one book might be worse than scribbling in another.
But let’s run with your analogy for a moment, and suppose that in fact Adam and Eve were as incompetent as toddler-you, and needed to be fenced about with incomprehensible absolute prohibitions whose real reasons they couldn’t understand. Would your parents have put toddler-you in a room with a big red button that launches the missiles, sternly told you not to push it, and then left you alone? If they had, what would you think of someone who said “oh, it’s all CCC’s fault that the world is a smoking ruin. He pushed that button even though his parents told him not to.”?
It certainly makes more sense that way than as history. But even so, it comes down to something like this: “Remember, kids! If you disobey your parents’ arbitrary instructions, they’re likely to throw you out of the house.” Ah, the piercing moral insight of the holy scriptures.
That’s an interpretation sometimes put on the text by people with a strong prior commitment to not letting the text have mistakes in it. But does what it says actually admit that interpretation? I’m going entirely off translations—I know maybe ten words of Hebrew—but it sure looks to me as if God says, simply and straightforwardly, that eating the fruit means dying the same day. Taking it to mean “your death will become inevitable” or “you will die spiritually” or something of the kind seems to me like rationalization.
But, again, I don’t know Hebrew and maybe “in that day you will surely die” really can mean “in that day it will become sure that on another day you will die”. Anyone want to enlighten me further?
I’m not actually sure.
I do think that there’s really incredibly good evidence that the Adam and Eve story is not literal, that it’s rather meant as a fable, to illustrate some important point. (It may be some sort of heavily mythological coating over an internal grain of historical truth, but if so, then it’s pretty deeply buried).
I’m not entirely sure what that point is. Part of it may be “the rules are there for a reason, don’t break them unless you’re really sure”. Part of it may be intended for children—“listen to your parents, they know better than you”. (And yes, some parents are bad news; but, by and large, the advice “listen to your parents” is very good advice for toddlers, because most parents care about their toddlers).
I do wonder, though—how old were they supposed to be? It seems that they were created in adult bodies, and gifted from creation with the ability to speak, but they may well have had a toddler’s naivete.
Not if they had any option.
Toddler-me would probably have expected that reaction. Current-me would consider putting toddler-me in that room to be horrendously irresponsible.
I see it as more “obey your parents, or you’re going to really hate what comes next”. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty broadly applicable.
If you know ten words of Hebrew, then you know ten more words of Hebrew than I do.
In short, I have no idea.
Do you mean there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true, or there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not intended literally? I agree with the former but am unconvinced by the latter. (But, for the avoidance of doubt, I have absolutely zero problems with Christians or Jews not taking it literally; I was among their number for many years.)
I started writing a list and realised that maybe the figure is more like 30; the words I know are all in dribs and drabs from various sources, and I’d forgotten a few sources. I suspect you actually know at least some of the same ones I do. (Some likely examples: shalom, shema, adam.) Of course the actual point here is that neither of us knows Hebrew, so we’re both guessing about what it means to say (as commonly translated into English) “in the day that you eat it, you shall surely die”.
I think there’s incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true, and (at least) very good evidence that it’s not intended literally. I consider the fact that there is incredibly good evidence that it’s not literally true to, in and of itself, be pretty good evidence that it’s not intended literally..
Shalom—I think that’s “peace”, right? I’m not sure. I don’t know shema at all, and adam I know only as the name of the first man.
So, it seems I know more Hebrew than I thought; but nonetheless, you are perfectly correct about the point.
Yup, shalom is peace. (Related to salaam in Arabic.) I thought you might know shema from the famous declaration of monotheism, which goes something like Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu, adonai ekhad”, meaning “Hear, Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one”. (It comes from Deuteronomy, and is used liturgically.) I think adam* actually means “man” as well as being the name of the first one.
There are some other Hebrew words you might know because they’re used to make Biblical names; e.g., Isaac = Yitzhak and means something like “he laughs”, which you might remember from the relevant bit in the Bible. (I think I remember you saying you’re a Christian, which is why I thought you might know some of those.)
I don’t think I’m personally familiar with that phrase.
That makes sense. I think I recall seeing a footnote to that effect.
...if I had a perfect memory, I probably would know a lot more Hebrew than I do. I’ve seen the derivations of a lot of Biblical names, I just haven’t really thought of them as being particularly important enough to memorise. There are plenty of things about Isaac more important than the etymology of his name, after all.
Understood, and I hope I didn’t give the impression that I think anyone is obliged to remember this sort of thing. (It happens that my brain grabs onto such things pretty effortlessly, which I guess is partial compensation for the other things it’s rubbish at.)
No worries, you didn’t give that impression at all.
How good that evidence is depends on whether the incredibly good evidence was available to (and incredibly good evidence for) the original writers.
A lot of the best reasons for thinking that the early chapters of Genesis are not literally true were (so far as anyone knows) completely unknown when those chapters were written.
According to Genesis 2 verse 10-14, the Garden was watered by a stream, which later split into four rivers. Two of those have, according to a brief Google search, gone missing in the time since Genesis was written, but the Tigris and the Euphrates would have been well known, even then. So checking up on Eden would have simply required heading up one of those rivers.
...which, now that I think about it, would have required someone willing to leave home for perhaps several days at a time and travel into the unknown, just to see what’s there.
Nah. If you head up those rivers and don’t find Eden, the obvious conclusion is just that God removed it some time after Adam and Eve left because it was surplus to requirements. It doesn’t (at least not obviously, so far as I can see) refute the Genesis story.
Genesis says it was protected by an angel with a flaming sword. I think it might be reasonable not to expect to find the Garden… but one could expect to find the angel with the flaming sword. After all, if something’s there as security, it’s generally put where unauthorised people can find it.
It’s not an obvious refutation, but it’s more likely the result of a non-literal than a literal Garden of Eden.
If Eden was removed as surplus to requirements, so presumably was the angel. And this all seems like such an obvious thing for an Eden-literalist to say after trekking up the river and finding nothing that I really don’t see how the (then) present-day absence of the GoE and angel could possibly have been much evidence against a literal Eden.
...I take your point. If there had been Eden literalists back then, then that evidence alone would have been insufficient to convince them otherwise.