But here in the real world, actual religious people tend not just to say “I had this amazing experience” but to go further and say “I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of all things seen and unseen, and in one Lord Jesus Christ”
Yes, of course I don’t deny that. The point is that the reason that they say these things (and maybe even actually believe these things) is because of subjective experiences that they have personally experienced which people who do not believe have not had (and who do not believe because they have not had those subjective experiences).
In this sense, we are all Spartacus.
This piece was originally written for a different audience than the hard-core rationalists that hang out here on Less Wrong. I probably should have taken that sentence out before posting it here. Sorry about that.
As I’ve remarked elsewhere in the thread, the fact (when it is one) that their belief is based on their subjective experiences is no reason why it shouldn’t be the subject of argument. Neither does that fact mean that their belief isn’t the result of “indoctrination or stupidity”. (Of course it needn’t be. But if you interpret a euphoric altered-consciousness experience as indicating the presence of a god who, say, is composed in a mysterious way of three persons in a single substance, disapproves of gay sex, approves of forgiveness, and walked the earth a couple of thousand years ago until he got nailed to a tree, that can be the result of indoctrination or stupidity just as easily as if you draw the same conclusions from the beauty of the natural world or from the presence of claims along those lines in a particular set of old documents.)
Sorry about that.
It’s OK. I hope you didn’t mind my snarkiness too much.
I think an interesting implication of this piece is that instead of arguing about the reality of the experiences of religious people, it would be helpful to empathize with religious people about their experiences, and even use the term “spiritual” if it resonates with them. Saying something like: “oh wow, that must have been really powerful” and sharing a personal euphoric experience might help them be more open to subsequent discussions, and prevent the backfire effect.
Yes, of course I don’t deny that. The point is that the reason that they say these things (and maybe even actually believe these things) is because of subjective experiences that they have personally experienced which people who do not believe have not had (and who do not believe because they have not had those subjective experiences).
This piece was originally written for a different audience than the hard-core rationalists that hang out here on Less Wrong. I probably should have taken that sentence out before posting it here. Sorry about that.
As I’ve remarked elsewhere in the thread, the fact (when it is one) that their belief is based on their subjective experiences is no reason why it shouldn’t be the subject of argument. Neither does that fact mean that their belief isn’t the result of “indoctrination or stupidity”. (Of course it needn’t be. But if you interpret a euphoric altered-consciousness experience as indicating the presence of a god who, say, is composed in a mysterious way of three persons in a single substance, disapproves of gay sex, approves of forgiveness, and walked the earth a couple of thousand years ago until he got nailed to a tree, that can be the result of indoctrination or stupidity just as easily as if you draw the same conclusions from the beauty of the natural world or from the presence of claims along those lines in a particular set of old documents.)
It’s OK. I hope you didn’t mind my snarkiness too much.
I think an interesting implication of this piece is that instead of arguing about the reality of the experiences of religious people, it would be helpful to empathize with religious people about their experiences, and even use the term “spiritual” if it resonates with them. Saying something like: “oh wow, that must have been really powerful” and sharing a personal euphoric experience might help them be more open to subsequent discussions, and prevent the backfire effect.