Thanks, I think I had missed or forgotten that. That thread you linked seems awesome.
It’s hard for me to believe the difference was just that he didn’t post in the open thread. He seems monomaniacal with his cause, and planned to post more of the same. He hasn’t discussed any other topic here, even introduced himself as a pedophile in the introduction thread.
Can you think of any other ways he could have been better received?
It’s hard for me to believe the difference was just that he didn’t post in the open thread.
Well, it is a huge difference. An article has a name, it can be linked independently, and it appears on a new web page with the logo of LessWrong above it. The only context it has is “this is the article published on LessWrong”.
A comment is just a comment. Yeah, in LW software it can also be linked separately, but at least the web page starts with saying that this is just one article and you can click here to see the whole context. And that specific article says that this is the place for controversial topics, so it’s like any comment posted there is automatically labeled as controversial. (It’s like coming with a monster costume on Halloween; everyone knows it’s a monster constume for Halloween.)
Imagine how newspaper websites look like, because many people have more experience reading them. The articles are written by editors; the newspaper owner is responsible for them. The comments are written by anyone, and it is obvious they don’t represent the opinion of the newspaper owner. Criticizing a newspaper for the article they published is reasonable, but people usually don’t criticize the newspaper for a random comment below it’s article, because they understand the comment was made by someone else. -- LessWrong is not like this, but if you send a hyperlink to people used to deal with newspapers and one-person blogs, they may have similar assumptions.
He seems monomaniacal with his cause, and planned to post more of the same.
Because he has no good place to post them elsewhere and expect a reasonable discussion. :(
Unfortunately this just makes the whole things worse. If LW becomes the rare place where this topic is treated reasonably, we can expect dozens of new members coming to express the same feelings here. That’s the horrible effect that if some kind of people are unwelcome at most places, any place that becomes tolerant to them faces a huge risk to become crowded by them disproportionately.
Because he has no good place to post them elsewhere and expect a reasonable discussion. :(
Which suggests there’s a market for a web forum whose policy is that controversial topics are welcomed and discussion of those topics must be reasonable no matter how reprehensible one considers the position one is discussing, and the moderators assiduously ban/delete violations of that policy.
As you say, LW is not that forum, and does not wish to be.
Incidentally, I would be astonished if such forums didn’t exist already. Were I looking for one, I would probably ask around on someplace like FetLife.
Admittedly, there are some mainstream-controversial topics that get discussed in that way here, with that sort of social norm, and I expect that in some communities the opinion of LW is tainted by those discussions in the same way you discuss. But the consensus opinion of LW seems to be that the opinions of those communities don’t really matter very much.
there are some mainstream-controversial topics that get discussed in that way here, with that sort of social norm, and I expect that in some communities the opinion of LW is tainted by those discussions in the same way you discuss
One difference is a different degree of taboo. Another one, I suspect more important, was the timing. The controversial topics didn’t start by someone posting a full article out of the blue. They first appeared as comments in other articles, somewhat related to their topics. Only later someone would write an article about it. And at least I didn’t have an impression that someone is on LW only to talk about the taboo topics.
In other words, if you want to talk about controversial topics, don’t start by shocking everyone. (Unless it’s a “door in the face” technique, when the shocking article gets heavily downvoted, but then people feel kinda guilty and become more tolerant in the discussion.)
Well, it is a huge difference. An article has a name, it can be linked independently, and it appears on a new web page with the logo of LessWrong above it. The only context it has is “this is the article published on LessWrong”.
You convinced me. Just vividly imagining this caused an availability bias.
It’s like coming with a monster costume on Halloween; everyone knows it’s a monster constume for Halloween.)
That’s a great analogy. I’m going to steal it!
Unfortunately this just makes the whole things worse. If LW becomes the rare place where this topic is treated reasonably, we can expect dozens of new members coming to express the same feelings here.
This is a good point, and wouldn’t be limited to just pedophiles. Permitting all taboos in the name of rationality is just going to lead to more taboos being discussed. Good luck selling rationality to people after that. Then again, if rationality simply doesn’t appeal to regular citizens, perhaps attracting controversy would be a great marketing strategy ;)
A comment is just a comment. Yeah, in LW software it can also be linked separately, but at least the web page starts with saying that this is just one article and you can click here to see the whole context.
Not to mention that it is, in my experience, a huge pain to locate any individual comment via site search unless they’re either highly upvoted or found on some of the most trafficked pages.
Well, it is, and it isn’t. If I were trying to find these discussions, I would google site:http://lesswrong.com “child porn” pedophilia or something of the sort, and it would work all right. But yes, one still has to look around a little; it isn’t the same as a link to an article.
Well, when I’ve attempted that method while trying to track down old comments on the site, I’ve often found that the comments I’m looking for do not come up as results, even when a sufficiently thorough search through the archives of the site is sufficient to find them, but if the keywords match to few enough other results, it might be more effective.
Thanks, I think I had missed or forgotten that. That thread you linked seems awesome.
It’s hard for me to believe the difference was just that he didn’t post in the open thread. He seems monomaniacal with his cause, and planned to post more of the same. He hasn’t discussed any other topic here, even introduced himself as a pedophile in the introduction thread.
Can you think of any other ways he could have been better received?
Well, it is a huge difference. An article has a name, it can be linked independently, and it appears on a new web page with the logo of LessWrong above it. The only context it has is “this is the article published on LessWrong”.
A comment is just a comment. Yeah, in LW software it can also be linked separately, but at least the web page starts with saying that this is just one article and you can click here to see the whole context. And that specific article says that this is the place for controversial topics, so it’s like any comment posted there is automatically labeled as controversial. (It’s like coming with a monster costume on Halloween; everyone knows it’s a monster constume for Halloween.)
Imagine how newspaper websites look like, because many people have more experience reading them. The articles are written by editors; the newspaper owner is responsible for them. The comments are written by anyone, and it is obvious they don’t represent the opinion of the newspaper owner. Criticizing a newspaper for the article they published is reasonable, but people usually don’t criticize the newspaper for a random comment below it’s article, because they understand the comment was made by someone else. -- LessWrong is not like this, but if you send a hyperlink to people used to deal with newspapers and one-person blogs, they may have similar assumptions.
Because he has no good place to post them elsewhere and expect a reasonable discussion. :(
Unfortunately this just makes the whole things worse. If LW becomes the rare place where this topic is treated reasonably, we can expect dozens of new members coming to express the same feelings here. That’s the horrible effect that if some kind of people are unwelcome at most places, any place that becomes tolerant to them faces a huge risk to become crowded by them disproportionately.
Which suggests there’s a market for a web forum whose policy is that controversial topics are welcomed and discussion of those topics must be reasonable no matter how reprehensible one considers the position one is discussing, and the moderators assiduously ban/delete violations of that policy.
As you say, LW is not that forum, and does not wish to be.
Incidentally, I would be astonished if such forums didn’t exist already. Were I looking for one, I would probably ask around on someplace like FetLife.
Admittedly, there are some mainstream-controversial topics that get discussed in that way here, with that sort of social norm, and I expect that in some communities the opinion of LW is tainted by those discussions in the same way you discuss. But the consensus opinion of LW seems to be that the opinions of those communities don’t really matter very much.
One difference is a different degree of taboo. Another one, I suspect more important, was the timing. The controversial topics didn’t start by someone posting a full article out of the blue. They first appeared as comments in other articles, somewhat related to their topics. Only later someone would write an article about it. And at least I didn’t have an impression that someone is on LW only to talk about the taboo topics.
In other words, if you want to talk about controversial topics, don’t start by shocking everyone. (Unless it’s a “door in the face” technique, when the shocking article gets heavily downvoted, but then people feel kinda guilty and become more tolerant in the discussion.)
Yes, those are two differences, agreed. My suspicion is that the importance ranks the other way, but you might be right.
Agreed, including the caveat and a few other caveats in the same vein.
You convinced me. Just vividly imagining this caused an availability bias.
That’s a great analogy. I’m going to steal it!
This is a good point, and wouldn’t be limited to just pedophiles. Permitting all taboos in the name of rationality is just going to lead to more taboos being discussed. Good luck selling rationality to people after that. Then again, if rationality simply doesn’t appeal to regular citizens, perhaps attracting controversy would be a great marketing strategy ;)
Not to mention that it is, in my experience, a huge pain to locate any individual comment via site search unless they’re either highly upvoted or found on some of the most trafficked pages.
Well, it is, and it isn’t. If I were trying to find these discussions, I would google site:http://lesswrong.com “child porn” pedophilia or something of the sort, and it would work all right. But yes, one still has to look around a little; it isn’t the same as a link to an article.
Well, when I’ve attempted that method while trying to track down old comments on the site, I’ve often found that the comments I’m looking for do not come up as results, even when a sufficiently thorough search through the archives of the site is sufficient to find them, but if the keywords match to few enough other results, it might be more effective.