I think this probably should be a taboo topic because a) the number of people possibly helped by better legislation about this issue is fairly low
Estimates of pedophilia in the male population are in the 1-5% range. That’s a lot of people.
c) it’s not actually something that we can easily get RIGHT.
I’m not sure why not. Of course the community doesn’t seem eager to do so, but it’s because of reputational hazard. Few people may believe me, but the reason I brought this subject up here is because I was genuinely interested in at least a few members of this relatively clear-thinking community here considering the facts and inferences around this issue; it’s an issue where as I see it incorrect beliefs about matters of fact play a large role.
I think the balance between protection of children and the happiness of pedophiles is not something this where we’ll find the right balance on in a discussion here,
IF one took an interest in this issue, it is a case where a little effort could have a magnified effect. A single voice can have more effect moving from 2% to 4% tolerance for celibate pedophiles than an issue where the issues are widely known and we’re trying to move from 40% to 51%.
The stigmatization of people who have certain feelings they can’t control is likely to be harsher than is good but I can’t actually picture reasonable policy changes that will help the situation.
I can. For starters:
Elimination of mandated reporter laws
Elimination of sex offender registries and residency restrictions
Public education on distinguishing sex abuse from pedophilia—get to the point where when someone says “He’s a pedophile” the question that comes to mind is, “Is he an abuser or a celibate pedophile?”
Decriminalization of child pornography possession.
The first three would help protect children—I’m not saying it’s obvious why, but I think I have arguments that would convince a lot of people. The fourth would save a whole lot of money in criminal justice costs.
I’m not agitating for people doing these things in this community. I’m responding to your assertion that there is nothing that could be done if someone wanted to.
all of your examples are tradeoffs, which was my entire point. Each punishes pedophiles in order to (presumably) protect children. Making each of your changes would obviously be better for you and other pedophiles, and you haven’t actually made these arguments you say you have so I don’t see any reason to think they would protect children rather than put them in more danger.
Second: 1-5 percent of men is 0.5-2.5 percent of humans and there are a lot more PSAs about rationality that I think would help a lot more than that many people. What percentage of people are children? If there are a lot more children than pedophiles doesn’t the math say it’s fine to ruin some pedophiles lives?
Third: Multiply all these relatively unconvincing arguments by their likelihood of ever being implemented based on them being discussed here. If we spent a long time talking about this and campaigning for it we MIGHT get a legal change that would help a small percentage of the population but we definitely completely ruin our reputation, not to mention it would distract from anything else we want to talk about.
all of your examples are tradeoffs, which was my entire point. … you haven’t actually made these arguments you say you have …
Mandated reporter laws and the sex offender registry were intended to be trade-offs, but unexpected consequences have made them bad for kids too.
The discussion here doesn’t even mention the effect on pedophiles. Pedophiles who are concerned they might offend against children with low probability know that if they tell a therapist about their attraction, they might be reported, if the therapist decides they are an imminent danger. Most pedophiles don’t know what criteria their therapist would use, they don’t want to risk it, so they do not seek help.
In some cases victims are discouraged from reporting too. Suppose a girl is being abused by her uncle. She doesn’t experience it as terrible but she wants it to stop. But she doesn’t want to face a formal investigation, which involves endless interrogations for her, embarrassing publicity, family strife, and perhaps sending her uncle to prison for 10 years. If she knew there could be a way of handling the situation privately in accord with her needs and wishes, she may be more likely to report it and get it to stop.
Sex offender registries often make it very difficult for an ex-offender to find a place to live. Here is Wikipedia’s take on it. Here is a specific in-depth example. Once ex-offenders are breaking the law by going underground and feeling maltreated by society, there is less reason to obey other laws too, including ones against molesting children.
Pedophiles who are concerned they might offend against children with low probability know that if they tell a therapist about their attraction, they might be reported, if the therapist decides they are an imminent danger. Most pedophiles don’t know what criteria their therapist would use, they don’t want to risk it, so they do not seek help.
Robin Hanson or Eliezer Yudkowsky made a post on this, with terrorism substituted for pedophilia. The benefit of having a therapist able to apply influence to the individual would come from the commitment to privacy. As with priests confessionals, etc.
If the choice is between a potential perpetrator talking to a therapist and having a chance of being influenced but not reported and a potential perpetrator speaking to no one then the consequences are in favour of mandated silence… unless most perpetrators are somehow stupid enough to effectively confess to their impulses to the police for the hell of it.
Suppose a girl is being abused by her uncle. She doesn’t experience it as terrible but she wants it to stop. But she doesn’t want to face a formal investigation, which involves endless interrogations for her, embarrassing publicity, family strife, and perhaps sending her uncle to prison for 10 years. If she knew there could be a way of handling the situation privately in accord with her needs and wishes, she may be more likely to report it and get it to stop.
This scenario sounds a bit fantastical; the rape survivor who doesn’t go to the cops isn’t doing it because they “[didn’t] experience it as terrible” and want to protect their rapist, it’s because doing so puts them on the firing line and brings back all the trauma with the added benefit of a negligible chance of actually seeing justice. I would know here; one of my childhood friends was raped by some freak when she was a little girl, and even though she managed to grow up healthy despite it that single attack still left a lot of deep psychological scars. And that is a best-case scenario; a girl like you describe is trapped with their rapist and is unlikely to even be willing to tell their parents what happened, which means they will be raped over and over while being forced to pretend nothing is wrong.
It’s not the stigma against pedophiles which hurts these children… it’s the pedophiles who rape them.
I realize you claim not to have hurt a child, and if it’s true I’m certainly glad about that, but there really is no comparison between the inconvenience of sexual frustration / possible police investigation and being raped. “Coming out” and making sure that society can protect itself is the only moral thing to do if you really are sincere here; the cost of raping children or providing demand for pornography in which children are raped is so much higher than any price a person can pay socially or legally that you would absolutely come out ahead no matter what happened. The highest ideal of a civilized person is to do the right thing even if it’s painful, and that means having the courage to accept the consequences of your actions.
In the discussion of mandated reporter laws, I was thinking not one iota of the interests of the perpetrators of the crime. I was thinking only of the best interests of the children.
There are awful situations, that’s for sure. All I’m trying to address here is the differential between having a mandated reporter law and not having one. Reporting is of course very often the right thing to do, and it will of course be done a lot of the time without a mandated reporter law as well.
“Coming out” and making sure that society can protect itself is the only moral thing to do if you really are sincere here
This is pretty bewildering. I guess you are assuming that I pose a risk of hurting a child even if I am sure I don’t. Or that I am providing demand for child pornography that I’ve never seen or sought out. For those of you who thought it was obvious that some pedophiles don’t abuse children, I guess you’ve now found someone who doesn’t think it’s obvious at all.
The highest ideal of a civilized person is to do the right thing even if it’s painful, and that means having the courage to accept the consequences of your actions.
The law says a doctor has the right to report if he deems he could prevent certain serious crimes by doing so. Rape wouldn’t fit the bill, but aggravated rape would. He isn’t allowed to report any crimes that have already happened, with the exception of child abuse. Concerning child abuse, even a suspicion obligates the doctor to report. This means social workers investigate the issue first, and a report rarely involves the law enforcement.
Any laws concerning professional confidentiality are easy enough to circumvent by making anonymous calls, and obviously cops want to protect their witnesses anyway and are enthusiastic to put “the bad guys” behind bars. There are also tricks to break the confidentiality without technically breaking the law. I think it’s also pretty easy just not to report without facing any consequences in most situations, and this actually happens very often because the current law leads to absurd situations and overloads the system.
All this being said, I don’t think changing the reporting laws would change the issue much, and it comes down to personal ethics of the professionals involved.
An example from a doctor from Finland: [...] All this being said, I don’t think changing the reporting laws would change the issue much, and it comes down to personal ethics of the professionals involved.
I don’t know the exact laws in the US but I could imaging that changing them to the Finish ones could be an improvement.
Suppose a girl is being abused by her uncle. She doesn’t experience it as terrible but she wants it to stop. But she doesn’t want to face a formal investigation, which involves endless interrogations for her, embarrassing publicity, family strife, and perhaps sending her uncle to prison for 10 years.
Most young children wouldn’t understand the implications of a formal investigation. Children are not mature enough to decide what the correct way to handle the situation is.
ETA: I’d like to understand the thought process behind the downvotes.
I’ll confess that in this case I was thinking of a 14-year-old girl, and I’ve been mostly focusing on prepubescents in other places. For younger children, their parents are of course much more likely to be involved and key players. They too should be able to get outside help without automatic triggering of mandated reporter laws.
Estimates of pedophilia in the male population are in the 1-5% range. That’s a lot of people.
I’m not sure why not. Of course the community doesn’t seem eager to do so, but it’s because of reputational hazard. Few people may believe me, but the reason I brought this subject up here is because I was genuinely interested in at least a few members of this relatively clear-thinking community here considering the facts and inferences around this issue; it’s an issue where as I see it incorrect beliefs about matters of fact play a large role.
The happiness of pedophiles in certain respects may work in favor of the protection of children. Being able to find a supportive community is likely to reduce offending. Consider http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/08/what-can-be-done-about-pedophilia/279024/
IF one took an interest in this issue, it is a case where a little effort could have a magnified effect. A single voice can have more effect moving from 2% to 4% tolerance for celibate pedophiles than an issue where the issues are widely known and we’re trying to move from 40% to 51%.
I can. For starters:
Elimination of mandated reporter laws
Elimination of sex offender registries and residency restrictions
Public education on distinguishing sex abuse from pedophilia—get to the point where when someone says “He’s a pedophile” the question that comes to mind is, “Is he an abuser or a celibate pedophile?”
Decriminalization of child pornography possession.
The first three would help protect children—I’m not saying it’s obvious why, but I think I have arguments that would convince a lot of people. The fourth would save a whole lot of money in criminal justice costs.
I’m not agitating for people doing these things in this community. I’m responding to your assertion that there is nothing that could be done if someone wanted to.
all of your examples are tradeoffs, which was my entire point. Each punishes pedophiles in order to (presumably) protect children. Making each of your changes would obviously be better for you and other pedophiles, and you haven’t actually made these arguments you say you have so I don’t see any reason to think they would protect children rather than put them in more danger.
Second: 1-5 percent of men is 0.5-2.5 percent of humans and there are a lot more PSAs about rationality that I think would help a lot more than that many people. What percentage of people are children? If there are a lot more children than pedophiles doesn’t the math say it’s fine to ruin some pedophiles lives?
Third: Multiply all these relatively unconvincing arguments by their likelihood of ever being implemented based on them being discussed here. If we spent a long time talking about this and campaigning for it we MIGHT get a legal change that would help a small percentage of the population but we definitely completely ruin our reputation, not to mention it would distract from anything else we want to talk about.
Mandated reporter laws and the sex offender registry were intended to be trade-offs, but unexpected consequences have made them bad for kids too.
The discussion here doesn’t even mention the effect on pedophiles. Pedophiles who are concerned they might offend against children with low probability know that if they tell a therapist about their attraction, they might be reported, if the therapist decides they are an imminent danger. Most pedophiles don’t know what criteria their therapist would use, they don’t want to risk it, so they do not seek help.
In some cases victims are discouraged from reporting too. Suppose a girl is being abused by her uncle. She doesn’t experience it as terrible but she wants it to stop. But she doesn’t want to face a formal investigation, which involves endless interrogations for her, embarrassing publicity, family strife, and perhaps sending her uncle to prison for 10 years. If she knew there could be a way of handling the situation privately in accord with her needs and wishes, she may be more likely to report it and get it to stop.
Sex offender registries often make it very difficult for an ex-offender to find a place to live. Here is Wikipedia’s take on it. Here is a specific in-depth example. Once ex-offenders are breaking the law by going underground and feeling maltreated by society, there is less reason to obey other laws too, including ones against molesting children.
Robin Hanson or Eliezer Yudkowsky made a post on this, with terrorism substituted for pedophilia. The benefit of having a therapist able to apply influence to the individual would come from the commitment to privacy. As with priests confessionals, etc.
If the choice is between a potential perpetrator talking to a therapist and having a chance of being influenced but not reported and a potential perpetrator speaking to no one then the consequences are in favour of mandated silence… unless most perpetrators are somehow stupid enough to effectively confess to their impulses to the police for the hell of it.
This scenario sounds a bit fantastical; the rape survivor who doesn’t go to the cops isn’t doing it because they “[didn’t] experience it as terrible” and want to protect their rapist, it’s because doing so puts them on the firing line and brings back all the trauma with the added benefit of a negligible chance of actually seeing justice. I would know here; one of my childhood friends was raped by some freak when she was a little girl, and even though she managed to grow up healthy despite it that single attack still left a lot of deep psychological scars. And that is a best-case scenario; a girl like you describe is trapped with their rapist and is unlikely to even be willing to tell their parents what happened, which means they will be raped over and over while being forced to pretend nothing is wrong.
It’s not the stigma against pedophiles which hurts these children… it’s the pedophiles who rape them.
I realize you claim not to have hurt a child, and if it’s true I’m certainly glad about that, but there really is no comparison between the inconvenience of sexual frustration / possible police investigation and being raped. “Coming out” and making sure that society can protect itself is the only moral thing to do if you really are sincere here; the cost of raping children or providing demand for pornography in which children are raped is so much higher than any price a person can pay socially or legally that you would absolutely come out ahead no matter what happened. The highest ideal of a civilized person is to do the right thing even if it’s painful, and that means having the courage to accept the consequences of your actions.
Or non-actions, as the case may be.
In the discussion of mandated reporter laws, I was thinking not one iota of the interests of the perpetrators of the crime. I was thinking only of the best interests of the children.
There are awful situations, that’s for sure. All I’m trying to address here is the differential between having a mandated reporter law and not having one. Reporting is of course very often the right thing to do, and it will of course be done a lot of the time without a mandated reporter law as well.
This is pretty bewildering. I guess you are assuming that I pose a risk of hurting a child even if I am sure I don’t. Or that I am providing demand for child pornography that I’ve never seen or sought out. For those of you who thought it was obvious that some pedophiles don’t abuse children, I guess you’ve now found someone who doesn’t think it’s obvious at all.
What actions do you have in mind here?
How it works in Finland:
The law says a doctor has the right to report if he deems he could prevent certain serious crimes by doing so. Rape wouldn’t fit the bill, but aggravated rape would. He isn’t allowed to report any crimes that have already happened, with the exception of child abuse. Concerning child abuse, even a suspicion obligates the doctor to report. This means social workers investigate the issue first, and a report rarely involves the law enforcement.
Any laws concerning professional confidentiality are easy enough to circumvent by making anonymous calls, and obviously cops want to protect their witnesses anyway and are enthusiastic to put “the bad guys” behind bars. There are also tricks to break the confidentiality without technically breaking the law. I think it’s also pretty easy just not to report without facing any consequences in most situations, and this actually happens very often because the current law leads to absurd situations and overloads the system.
All this being said, I don’t think changing the reporting laws would change the issue much, and it comes down to personal ethics of the professionals involved.
I don’t know the exact laws in the US but I could imaging that changing them to the Finish ones could be an improvement.
She can privately tell her uncle: “If you don’t stop, I will tell someone.”
What exactly is the problem here? The possibility that the poor uncle doesn’t care and won’t stop...?
Most young children wouldn’t understand the implications of a formal investigation. Children are not mature enough to decide what the correct way to handle the situation is.
ETA: I’d like to understand the thought process behind the downvotes.
I’ll confess that in this case I was thinking of a 14-year-old girl, and I’ve been mostly focusing on prepubescents in other places. For younger children, their parents are of course much more likely to be involved and key players. They too should be able to get outside help without automatic triggering of mandated reporter laws.