Too ambiguous (something of premature abstraction). It’s not clear what most of the elements of this post refer to, so it’s not possible to have a clear discussion about them.
I think that premise is very wrong. If “developed nations” is the model you had in mind while writing, I can understand why most commentors find this post confusing. I guessed you meant something like an internet community like LW. Attempting to abstract over these things seems problematic, as pointed out by Vladimir Nesov.
What does it mean to “join” a nation? To be “invited to join”? To choose whether to do so or not? In what sense does a nation have a top-level goal (explicit or otherwise)? In what sense is a nation rational or otherwise? How does a nation identify the goals of its members?
Acquiring citizenship is joining a nation. People who are not only allowed to acquire citizenship but encouraged to do so are “invited to join”. To choose whether to do so or not is to file the necessary papers and perform the necessary acts. I think that these answers should be obvious.
A nation has a top-most goal if all of its goals do not conflict with that goal. This is more specific than a top-level goal.
A nation is rational to the extent that its actions promote its goals. Did you really have to ask this?
How does a nation identify the goals of its members? My immediate reaction is the quip “Not very well”. A better answer is “that is what government is supposed to be for”. I have no interest and no intention to get into politics. The problem with my providing a specific example, particularly one that falls short in the rationality department from what was stated in the premise, is that people tend to latch on to the properties of the example in order to argue rather than considering the premise. Current “developed nations” are a very poor, imperfect, irrational echo of the model I had in mind but they are the closest existing (and therefore easily/clearly cited) example I could think of.
In fact, let me change my example to a theoretical nation where Eliezer has led a group of the best and brightest LessWrong individuals to create a new manmade-island-based nation with a unique new form of government. Would you join if invited?
And this is still too abstract. Depending on detail of the situation, either decision might be right. For example, I might like to remain where I am, thank you very much.
Worse, so far I’ve seen no motivation for the questions of this post, and what discussion happened around it was fueled by making equally unmotivated arbitrary implicit assumptions not following from the problem statement in the post. It’s the worst kind of confusion when people start talking about the topic as if understanding each other, when in fact the direction of their conversation is guided by any reasons but the content of the topic in question. Cargo cult conversation (or maybe small talk).
And this is still too abstract. Depending on detail of the situation, either decision might be right. For example, I might like to remain where I am, thank you very much.
So I take it that you are heavily supporting the initial post’s “Premise: The only rational answer given the current information is the last one.”
Worse, so far I’ve seen no motivation for the questions of this post, and what discussion happened around it was fueled by making equally unmotivated arbitrary implicit assumptions not following from the problem statement in the post.
Thank you. I didn’t clearly understand the need for the explicit inclusion of motivation before.
The reason I ask questions which you think have obvious answers is that I think the easily-stated obvious answers make large, blurry assumptions. For example:
A nation is rational to the extent that its actions promote its goals.
What are the actions of a nation? The aggregate actions of the population? Those of the head of state? What about lower-level officials in government? Large companies based in the nation?
A nation has a top-most goal if all of its goals do not conflict with that goal.
Ok, I should have started with a more basic question then. What does it mean for a nation to have any goal?
I agree that nations are not a great example. After all, acquiring citizenship usually means emigration, new rights of travel, change in economic circumstances and often loss of previous citizenship. All of these overwhelm any considerations about rationality of the new nation.
The actions of a nation are those which were caused by it’s governance structure like your actions are those which are caused by your brain. A fever or your stomach growling is not your action in the same sense that actions by lower-level officials and large companies are not the actions of a nation—particularly when those officials and companies are subsequently censured or there is some later attempt to rein them in. Actions of the duly recognized head of state acting in a national capacity are actions of the nation unless they are subsequently over-ruled by rest of the governance structure—which is pretty much the equivalent of your having an accident or making a mistake.
A nation has explicit goals when it declares those goals through it’s governance structure.
A nation has implicit goals when it’s governance structure appears to be acting in a fashion resembling rational behavior for having those goals and there is not an alternative explanation.
Too ambiguous (something of premature abstraction). It’s not clear what most of the elements of this post refer to, so it’s not possible to have a clear discussion about them.
Too ambiguous. It’s not clear which elements aren’t clear to you, so it’s not possible to fix the problem.
Pretty much everything. To fix the problem, give an example.
Thank you very much.
Premise: Most developed nations are such a community although the goal is certainly not explicit.
Do you believe that premise is flawed?
I think that premise is very wrong. If “developed nations” is the model you had in mind while writing, I can understand why most commentors find this post confusing. I guessed you meant something like an internet community like LW. Attempting to abstract over these things seems problematic, as pointed out by Vladimir Nesov.
What does it mean to “join” a nation? To be “invited to join”? To choose whether to do so or not? In what sense does a nation have a top-level goal (explicit or otherwise)? In what sense is a nation rational or otherwise? How does a nation identify the goals of its members?
Acquiring citizenship is joining a nation. People who are not only allowed to acquire citizenship but encouraged to do so are “invited to join”. To choose whether to do so or not is to file the necessary papers and perform the necessary acts. I think that these answers should be obvious.
A nation has a top-most goal if all of its goals do not conflict with that goal. This is more specific than a top-level goal.
A nation is rational to the extent that its actions promote its goals. Did you really have to ask this?
How does a nation identify the goals of its members? My immediate reaction is the quip “Not very well”. A better answer is “that is what government is supposed to be for”. I have no interest and no intention to get into politics. The problem with my providing a specific example, particularly one that falls short in the rationality department from what was stated in the premise, is that people tend to latch on to the properties of the example in order to argue rather than considering the premise. Current “developed nations” are a very poor, imperfect, irrational echo of the model I had in mind but they are the closest existing (and therefore easily/clearly cited) example I could think of.
In fact, let me change my example to a theoretical nation where Eliezer has led a group of the best and brightest LessWrong individuals to create a new manmade-island-based nation with a unique new form of government. Would you join if invited?
And this is still too abstract. Depending on detail of the situation, either decision might be right. For example, I might like to remain where I am, thank you very much.
Worse, so far I’ve seen no motivation for the questions of this post, and what discussion happened around it was fueled by making equally unmotivated arbitrary implicit assumptions not following from the problem statement in the post. It’s the worst kind of confusion when people start talking about the topic as if understanding each other, when in fact the direction of their conversation is guided by any reasons but the content of the topic in question. Cargo cult conversation (or maybe small talk).
So I take it that you are heavily supporting the initial post’s “Premise: The only rational answer given the current information is the last one.”
Thank you. I didn’t clearly understand the need for the explicit inclusion of motivation before.
The reason I ask questions which you think have obvious answers is that I think the easily-stated obvious answers make large, blurry assumptions. For example:
What are the actions of a nation? The aggregate actions of the population? Those of the head of state? What about lower-level officials in government? Large companies based in the nation?
Ok, I should have started with a more basic question then. What does it mean for a nation to have any goal?
I agree that nations are not a great example. After all, acquiring citizenship usually means emigration, new rights of travel, change in economic circumstances and often loss of previous citizenship. All of these overwhelm any considerations about rationality of the new nation.
Ah. Now I see your point.
The actions of a nation are those which were caused by it’s governance structure like your actions are those which are caused by your brain. A fever or your stomach growling is not your action in the same sense that actions by lower-level officials and large companies are not the actions of a nation—particularly when those officials and companies are subsequently censured or there is some later attempt to rein them in. Actions of the duly recognized head of state acting in a national capacity are actions of the nation unless they are subsequently over-ruled by rest of the governance structure—which is pretty much the equivalent of your having an accident or making a mistake.
A nation has explicit goals when it declares those goals through it’s governance structure.
A nation has implicit goals when it’s governance structure appears to be acting in a fashion resembling rational behavior for having those goals and there is not an alternative explanation.
I proposed a specific source of ambiguity elsewhere in the thread.