Original Comment: I’ve seen less paranoid suggestions in biosecurity laboratories get (correctly) dismissed as unnecessary and a waste of time. Note that If the virus were as transmissible as you seem to assume, China wouldn’t ever have contained it with “only” masks, isolation, and handwashing. Even if you’re worried the mail carrier coughed onto your box picking it up before delivery or on the way to your house—the only plausible way there could be enough viable virus on the box to make anyone sick given the data from the linked paper, there’s a far simpler procedure that is just as effective—wait a day, and the virus will be dead to an extent that you can’t get infected. (To be fair, I’m assuming coughing on the box, not large globs of spit that could remain viable without drying out. So if you want to be extra paranoid, wait 2 days. Also note that an exception to this is ordering fresh fruits and vegetables from a store, since you’re putting those into your mouth. In that case, you’ll be fine if you wash them with vegetable wash, and then wash your hands.)
If you really can’t wait, you can open the box outside, wash your hands correctly before touching the things inside, remove the contents, then put the box in the garbage, and wash your hands correctly. Do not touch your face during this approximately 1-minute time period, and even if it’s been coughed on by someone with COVID-19, you’ll be fine. And bleach is unnecessary and bad for your lungs, which you’ll need if you want to be likely to stay healthy if you do contract COVID-19. And there are no spores that would fly off and attach to your clothes, so if you’re reasonably careful not to rub against the box, then (unless you are using the box as a percussion instrument) any droplets on the box shouldn’t spread to your clothes.
wait a day, and the virus will be dead to an extent that you can’t get infected.
The paper that I’ve seen that tried to estimate this only reported TCID50/mL; how do you convert from that to infection risk?
[I think their methodology also might have been the equivalent of ‘licking the box’ instead of, say, touching the box with your finger and then touching your lips with your finger and then licking your lips, but for simplicity’s sake let’s assume I’m licking the box.]
First, please don’t lick the box. Second, I’m not a virologist, but the review he cited says that the survival time on paper, which will be similar to that of cardboard. That’s also assuming the droplets stay wet, which under non-laboratory testing conditions they will not.
I’m not a lab scientist, and haven’t worked in a lab since undergrad, but they say the method was end-point titration on Vero E6 cell—i.e. they put the sample on a bunch of cells that come from a standard line (of monkey kidney cells) for it to infect those cells, and tested those cells using titration.
That sounds like licking to me.
Also, +25 points to that paper for using Stan for the markov-chain monte carlo modeling, and only −10 for having appendixes in MS Word format.
Edit: and they do say the results for cardboard were unusually noisy, so it’s less reliable, but either way the virus was dead in a day.
I agree that China’s success is evidence this procedure is overkill. Edit: this comment has some potential caveats though—seems the US is probably doing worse than China in terms of ensuring delivery people aren’t infected.
wait a day, and the virus will be dead to an extent that you can’t get infected.
I linked to a meta-analysis finding that the virus can remain infectious on surfaces for much longer than a day, especially in colder temperatures.
And bleach is [...] bad for your lungs
Good to know. Hopefully wearing a mask will help with that.
2) The viral load in a cough droplet is rarely as high as 105 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591312/ and the review only said 9 days for viral loads of 107 , which is silly. The paper in question - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00430-004-0219-0 - also incubated the virus in a suspension, instead of leaving it to dry. And much of the literature is talking about stool samples rather than cough drops. Lastly, the infectiousness of a droplet that hasn’t dried, which isn’t relevant to the current discussion, still depends on the surface. You’re talking about cardboard, which will perform similarly to paper, and the results noted in the review are clear that it’s not a very hospitable surface
3) Typical masks don’t filter out chemical fumes. Odor respirators will help, but unless that’s specifically what you have, your masks aren’t doing anything to help reduce how much of the bleach fumes are reaching your lungs
The viral load in a cough droplet is rarely as high as 10^5, and the review only said 9 days for viral loads of 10^7, which is silly.
Silly, eh? What if it’s not a cough droplet? What if the delivery person is picking their nose?
You’re talking about cardboard, which will perform similarly to paper, and the results noted in the review are clear that it’s not a very hospitable surface
The review cites a study which allegedly found that SARS persisted 4-5 days on paper. Paper may very well be an inhospitable surface, but that fact does not seem clear from the review...
We do clothes etc same but wear mask spray box all over with 3 per cent peroxide wait a minute put box inside a tight tied plastic bag.wait 14 days.wear mask take out wash soap water all contents.wash mask clothes shower.does this make sense.I have immune 2 problems. Mail is a pain as hav do same and often trash mail we put boxes after 14 days then open in bag tie take dump,
UPDATE: Former head of CDC says to be super-safe, wait 3 days, not 1 as I suggested. Otherwise, they seem to agree with my assessment that the above procedure is way overboard. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/09/coronavirus-doctors-tips-handling-mail-groceries-column/2966267001/ (And John, I hope you’re feeling better—the last facebook update I saw from you said it didn’t seem to be COVID, but I haven’t seen any updates.)
Original Comment: I’ve seen less paranoid suggestions in biosecurity laboratories get (correctly) dismissed as unnecessary and a waste of time. Note that If the virus were as transmissible as you seem to assume, China wouldn’t ever have contained it with “only” masks, isolation, and handwashing. Even if you’re worried the mail carrier coughed onto your box picking it up before delivery or on the way to your house—the only plausible way there could be enough viable virus on the box to make anyone sick given the data from the linked paper, there’s a far simpler procedure that is just as effective—wait a day, and the virus will be dead to an extent that you can’t get infected. (To be fair, I’m assuming coughing on the box, not large globs of spit that could remain viable without drying out. So if you want to be extra paranoid, wait 2 days. Also note that an exception to this is ordering fresh fruits and vegetables from a store, since you’re putting those into your mouth. In that case, you’ll be fine if you wash them with vegetable wash, and then wash your hands.)
If you really can’t wait, you can open the box outside, wash your hands correctly before touching the things inside, remove the contents, then put the box in the garbage, and wash your hands correctly. Do not touch your face during this approximately 1-minute time period, and even if it’s been coughed on by someone with COVID-19, you’ll be fine. And bleach is unnecessary and bad for your lungs, which you’ll need if you want to be likely to stay healthy if you do contract COVID-19. And there are no spores that would fly off and attach to your clothes, so if you’re reasonably careful not to rub against the box, then (unless you are using the box as a percussion instrument) any droplets on the box shouldn’t spread to your clothes.
The paper that I’ve seen that tried to estimate this only reported TCID50/mL; how do you convert from that to infection risk?
[I think their methodology also might have been the equivalent of ‘licking the box’ instead of, say, touching the box with your finger and then touching your lips with your finger and then licking your lips, but for simplicity’s sake let’s assume I’m licking the box.]
First, please don’t lick the box. Second, I’m not a virologist, but the review he cited says that the survival time on paper, which will be similar to that of cardboard. That’s also assuming the droplets stay wet, which under non-laboratory testing conditions they will not.
I can’t find the full paper anywhere, but the PubMed abstract of the paper it cited says:” SARS coronavirus in the testing condition could survive in serum, 1:20 diluted sputum and feces...” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14631830-stability-of-sars-coronavirus-in-human-specimens-and-environment-and-its-sensitivity-to-heating-and-uv-irradiation/ - That also sounds like they preserved the droplets from drying, as they did in similar studies that were cited—https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00430-004-0219-0 - though I can’t tell.
I’m working off this paper, which did test cardboard.
I’m not a lab scientist, and haven’t worked in a lab since undergrad, but they say the method was end-point titration on Vero E6 cell—i.e. they put the sample on a bunch of cells that come from a standard line (of monkey kidney cells) for it to infect those cells, and tested those cells using titration.
That sounds like licking to me.
Also, +25 points to that paper for using Stan for the markov-chain monte carlo modeling, and only −10 for having appendixes in MS Word format.
Edit: and they do say the results for cardboard were unusually noisy, so it’s less reliable, but either way the virus was dead in a day.
Do you have citations for these claims?
I agree that China’s success is evidence this procedure is overkill. Edit: this comment has some potential caveats though—seems the US is probably doing worse than China in terms of ensuring delivery people aren’t infected.
I linked to a meta-analysis finding that the virus can remain infectious on surfaces for much longer than a day, especially in colder temperatures.
Good to know. Hopefully wearing a mask will help with that.
1) That wasn’t a meta analysis, it was a review.
2) The viral load in a cough droplet is rarely as high as 105 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591312/ and the review only said 9 days for viral loads of 107 , which is silly. The paper in question - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00430-004-0219-0
- also incubated the virus in a suspension, instead of leaving it to dry. And much of the literature is talking about stool samples rather than cough drops. Lastly, the infectiousness of a droplet that hasn’t dried, which isn’t relevant to the current discussion, still depends on the surface. You’re talking about cardboard, which will perform similarly to paper, and the results noted in the review are clear that it’s not a very hospitable surface
3) Typical masks don’t filter out chemical fumes. Odor respirators will help, but unless that’s specifically what you have, your masks aren’t doing anything to help reduce how much of the bleach fumes are reaching your lungs
Thanks, fixed.
Silly, eh? What if it’s not a cough droplet? What if the delivery person is picking their nose?
The review cites a study which allegedly found that SARS persisted 4-5 days on paper. Paper may very well be an inhospitable surface, but that fact does not seem clear from the review...
If you wash your hands after handling the box, again, none of this matters.
We do clothes etc same but wear mask spray box all over with 3 per cent peroxide wait a minute put box inside a tight tied plastic bag.wait 14 days.wear mask take out wash soap water all contents.wash mask clothes shower.does this make sense.I have immune 2 problems. Mail is a pain as hav do same and often trash mail we put boxes after 14 days then open in bag tie take dump,