The evidence that “romantic priming increases charitable behavior in women (and in men it increases conspicuous consumption)” would be more probable if his hypothesis was true. If consumptive behavior rather than altruistic behavior is produced by romantic priming, that would be consistent with the former being more useful than the latter for romantic efforts. While this evidence is sufficient for me to locate Roko’s hypothesis, I don’t yet feel compelled.
There are tribes where men gain status by giving food away, so humans seem to have the potential to accord status to men for certain altruistic behavior in certain contexts. The U.S. is a different culture. Even here, I agree with you that there are ways that giving away things can signal wealth.
I’m willing to grant Roko the plausibility of certain forms of charitable giving reducing male status and attractiveness, though I also think there are ways it could have the opposite effect, depending on context, and the other characteristics of the man involved and the subculture he is in.
Let me use an example to throw some light on the issue. Suppose that you are a woman’s genes. You have a choice between two men. One is just an ordinary, eligible guy.
The other has made a solemn lifelong commitment to give 50% of his wealth away to random strangers.
Which sperm would you like to fertilize your egg with? Think about the kind of sons and grandsons that would be the result.
Now for the “provider”, beta-male role. Which man would you prefer as the guy who you get to use to support yourself and your (maybe his) children?
It seems clear in this spherical-cow model that donating a lot to charity is a good way to steer yourself towards the beta-male stereotype. Admittedly, reality is more complex, but I think that this should be the “zeroth order” approximation to which corrections are made.
Furthermore, if you start conversations about the minutiae of efficient charity, and how you donate 40% of your income to Singinst/Givewell/VillageReachwhatever, and how you have put a financial value on a human life, then I am struggling to find a context in which this would make you either popular or attractive.
But if you start conversations about the minutiae of efficient charity, and how you donate 40% of your income to Singinst/Givewell/VillageReachwhatever, and how you have put a financial value on a human life, then I am struggling to find a context in which this would make you either popular or attractive.
Suppose that you are a woman’s genes. You have a choice between two men. One is just an ordinary, eligible guy. The other has made a solemn lifelong commitment to give 50% of his wealth away to random strangers. Which sperm would you like to fertilize your egg with? Think about the kind of sons and grandsons that would be the result.
Such a commitment is a form of signalling, like a peacock’s tail. Someone who manages to keep that commitment can afford to do so, signaling wealth.
Sure, but you can also achieve the same signalling-of-wealth value by using 50% of your wealth to buy Ferraris, Gold watches and designer suits.
Is there any relevant difference between signalling wealth by charitable donation versus conspicuous consumption? I think so: from the female genes’ point of view, conspicuous consumption signals selfishness, the desire to look after your own, whereas the charity signals sucker-ness—the desire to help others who are not reciprocating.
This is the altruist’s burden: if you help society at large, you create the counterpoint public choice problem to the special interests problem in politics. You harm a concentrated interest (friends, partner, children) in order to reward a diffuse interest (helping each of billions of people infinitesimally).
The concentrated interest then retaliates, because by standard public choice theory it has an incentive to do so, but the diffuse interest just ignores you.
I think so: from the female genes’ point of view, conspicuous consumption signals selfishness, the desire to look after your own, whereas the charity signals sucker-ness—the desire to help others who are not reciprocating.
It’s much more complicated than that. By improper conspicuous consumption, you can easily end up signaling that you’re a sucker. Even worse, you’ll signal that you’re the sort of sucker who’s easy to separate from his money. You can probably imagine the possible consequences of that botched signal.
Generally speaking, effective conspicuous consumption is very difficult to pull off. This of course doesn’t apply to the level of conspicuous consumption that you’re expected to undertake to avoid coming off as a weirdo given your position in society, but anything beyond that is dangerously apt to backfire in a multitude of ways.
Regarding counter-signaling, I remember the “Too Cool for School” paper that was linked from Marginal Revolution a few years ago, along with the subsequent “False Modesty” paper that shares a co-author. These seem to be the standard references about the topic.
But more importantly, I don’t think academic insight in this area gathered so far is particularly worthwhile. Before getting into complex mathematical models can be really fruitful, we first need an informal common-sense overview of the situation, in order to know where to look for situations that provide suitable material for more solid theories. Unfortunately, in this regard, even the most insightful people have made only baby steps so far.
I think Roko’s view is up in the air.
The evidence that “romantic priming increases charitable behavior in women (and in men it increases conspicuous consumption)” would be more probable if his hypothesis was true. If consumptive behavior rather than altruistic behavior is produced by romantic priming, that would be consistent with the former being more useful than the latter for romantic efforts. While this evidence is sufficient for me to locate Roko’s hypothesis, I don’t yet feel compelled.
There are tribes where men gain status by giving food away, so humans seem to have the potential to accord status to men for certain altruistic behavior in certain contexts. The U.S. is a different culture. Even here, I agree with you that there are ways that giving away things can signal wealth.
I’m willing to grant Roko the plausibility of certain forms of charitable giving reducing male status and attractiveness, though I also think there are ways it could have the opposite effect, depending on context, and the other characteristics of the man involved and the subculture he is in.
Let me use an example to throw some light on the issue. Suppose that you are a woman’s genes. You have a choice between two men. One is just an ordinary, eligible guy.
The other has made a solemn lifelong commitment to give 50% of his wealth away to random strangers.
Which sperm would you like to fertilize your egg with? Think about the kind of sons and grandsons that would be the result.
Now for the “provider”, beta-male role. Which man would you prefer as the guy who you get to use to support yourself and your (maybe his) children?
It seems clear in this spherical-cow model that donating a lot to charity is a good way to steer yourself towards the beta-male stereotype. Admittedly, reality is more complex, but I think that this should be the “zeroth order” approximation to which corrections are made.
Furthermore, if you start conversations about the minutiae of efficient charity, and how you donate 40% of your income to Singinst/Givewell/VillageReachwhatever, and how you have put a financial value on a human life, then I am struggling to find a context in which this would make you either popular or attractive.
Mmmm. Rationalism.
Such a commitment is a form of signalling, like a peacock’s tail. Someone who manages to keep that commitment can afford to do so, signaling wealth.
Sure, but you can also achieve the same signalling-of-wealth value by using 50% of your wealth to buy Ferraris, Gold watches and designer suits.
Is there any relevant difference between signalling wealth by charitable donation versus conspicuous consumption? I think so: from the female genes’ point of view, conspicuous consumption signals selfishness, the desire to look after your own, whereas the charity signals sucker-ness—the desire to help others who are not reciprocating.
This is the altruist’s burden: if you help society at large, you create the counterpoint public choice problem to the special interests problem in politics. You harm a concentrated interest (friends, partner, children) in order to reward a diffuse interest (helping each of billions of people infinitesimally).
The concentrated interest then retaliates, because by standard public choice theory it has an incentive to do so, but the diffuse interest just ignores you.
Roko:
It’s much more complicated than that. By improper conspicuous consumption, you can easily end up signaling that you’re a sucker. Even worse, you’ll signal that you’re the sort of sucker who’s easy to separate from his money. You can probably imagine the possible consequences of that botched signal.
Generally speaking, effective conspicuous consumption is very difficult to pull off. This of course doesn’t apply to the level of conspicuous consumption that you’re expected to undertake to avoid coming off as a weirdo given your position in society, but anything beyond that is dangerously apt to backfire in a multitude of ways.
This seems like a nitpick: it is orthogonal to the point at issue.
I was’t attacking the point at issue. It just seemed worth pointing out as a digression.
Sure. Actually, I’d be interested if you had any academic references on the details of signalling theory, especially issues like counter-signalling
Regarding counter-signaling, I remember the “Too Cool for School” paper that was linked from Marginal Revolution a few years ago, along with the subsequent “False Modesty” paper that shares a co-author. These seem to be the standard references about the topic.
But more importantly, I don’t think academic insight in this area gathered so far is particularly worthwhile. Before getting into complex mathematical models can be really fruitful, we first need an informal common-sense overview of the situation, in order to know where to look for situations that provide suitable material for more solid theories. Unfortunately, in this regard, even the most insightful people have made only baby steps so far.