I am not sufficiently familiar with it and, frankly, I don’t care enough about the topic to go read a bunch of economics papers and then fisk them. My data-less suspicion is that bans on advertising are a consequence of reduced competition and/or near-monopoly behavior by incumbents, just a harm to consumers is also a consequence of the same thing, and people misinterpret the correlation between “less advertising” and “harm to consumers”.
fewer consumers would be aware of this new product and what it’s about, resulting in loss of the potential consumer surplus from drinking the new product
So, you pointed out the benefits. What about costs? Why do you believe the benefits are higher than costs?
Also, you’re ignoring the advertising for established products, as well as for failed products (e.g. the New Coke).
Note that I’m not saying that all advertising is harmful and that zero advertising is the desired state. I am saying that my best guess at the “optimal” point (which balances costs against public benefits) is such that I think the current levels of commercial advertising are above that point. Reducing advertising would get us closer to that optimum—though, obviously, I don’t know where exactly it is.
Of course the optimal point which balances costs against public benefits is different from the optimal point which balances costs against the firm’s benefits.
In the absence of this, consumers would have to go to the supermarket on a much-more-frequent basis, just to check the price of Coke.
Let’s not get quite this ridiculous X-)
I think there’s a very heavy burden on people who claim it’s “too high” (or “too low”)
That’s a cop-out :-) Besides, adversarial competition in a free market optimizes for the firm’s benefits from advertising, not for the public benefits.
Why on earth would the cost savings be passed on to consumers?
Because, as you mentioned, there is “adversarial competition in a free market”. That includes price wars, promotional coupons, etc. By your logic, there should never be promotions for a product—why lessen your profits for no good reason?
So, you pointed out the benefits. What about costs? Why do you believe the benefits are higher than costs?
But I don’t see costs to consumers here. Savings would not be passed on to consumers (see below), so what is the problem? That some people find the adverts annoying? Sure, but others find them entertaining. Coke in particular has had many adverts that have entered public consciousness.
I am saying that my best guess at the “optimal” point (which balances costs against public benefits) is such that I think the current levels of commercial advertising are above that point. Reducing advertising would get us closer to that optimum—though, obviously, I don’t know where exactly it is.
This is exactly the kind of claim that I think should have to face a very heavy burden. Your WAG (which you cheerfully admit is not based on a careful reading of the literature) is that the public costs of advertising (which you do not specify) are greater than the (equally unspecified) public benefits. Because you can’t specify or quantify any costs or benefits, you can’t say how much you’d like to reduce advertising by, but it’s just got to be reduced, dag nabbit!
Why on earth would the cost savings be passed on to consumers?
Because, as you mentioned, there is “adversarial competition in a free market”
So? That only implies that firms pass on cost savings if we have perfect competition (driving price down to marginal cost). If you have imperfect competition, firms are (at least partially) price-setters, not price-takers, and set price based on demand, to maximise profits. For an extreme example of imperfect competition, a Damien Hirst artwork that was cheap to make doesn’t necessarily sell for any less than one that was expensive to make. For a standard example of (pseudo-)perfect competition, see petrol—it’s an essentially indistinguishable commodity, so all petrol stations sell it at basically the same price (small changes based on location), and cost rises/falls are passed on to the consumer.
By your logic, there should never be promotions for a product—why lessen your profits for no good reason?
On the contrary, promotions for a product are an excellent sign that you don’t have perfect competition—that’s why you never see a sale on petrol (see above). Companies run promotions because they are selling well above marginal cost, but they want to be able to price-discriminate to make additional profits. For example, suppose I am selling Coke, and there are two people, Alan and Bob. Coke costs me 10p per litre to produce. Alan values Coke at £2.50 per litre, and would like to buy 1 litre per day. Bob values Coke at 60p per litre, and would like to buy 1 litre per day. So I price the Coke at £2 per litre, and make £1.90 (Alan pockets 50p consumer surplus, Bob doesn’t buy). That’s more profitable to me than pricing the Coke at 50p per litre, because although I’d make an additional profitable sale to Bob, it would reduce my profits from the Alan transaction by more. What I really want to do is sell Coke to Alan at £2 per litre, but Bob at 50p per litre, and that is where promotions etc come into play. Ideally I will find a way to advertise my promotion to Bob, without letting Alan find out.
In the absence of this, consumers would have to go to the supermarket on a much-more-frequent basis, just to check the price of Coke.
Let’s not get quite this ridiculous X-)
I don’t know what you mean by ridiculous. I buy a lot of Coke, but I am a thrifty shopper. I carefully collect coupons etc for discounted products (not just Coke) to take advantage of the cost savings, and buy staple products like Coke only when they are on promotion. In the absence of advertising for discounts etc, I definitely would go to the supermarket more often to check for offers. This would be an annoying waste of my time. There are plenty of other people like me.
I feel there’s some disconnect here. Advertising costs are effectively paid for by consumers so of course the magnitude of these costs impacts the consumers. Imagine them doubled or quadrupled—you don’t think this would result in higher prices? Or do you believe the prices to be a ratchet going one way only so that reduced costs never lead to reduced prices?
Your WAG (which you cheerfully admit is not based on a careful reading of the literature) is that the public costs of advertising (which you do not specify) are greater than the (equally unspecified) public benefits.
Since it’s the consumers who pay for advertising, the direct public costs of advertising are pretty easy to estimate: that’s the revenue of the advertising industry. You can, of course, then start adjusting this number is a variety of ways.
Public benefits, I have no good estimate for.
My WAG is, of course, a WAG, but I don’t see why your position that the level of advertising expenses happens to be optimal for the public benefit should enjoy the advantages of being the default baseline.
The reasoning behind my estimate is pretty simple. Firms set the levels of advertising expenditure based on their estimates of the benefits to the firm. My assumption is that any advertisement brings more benefit to the firm which places it than to the public at large. Given this, the market-determined level of advertising is going to be too high from the public benefit point of view.
If you have imperfect competition, firms are (at least partially) price-setters, not price-takers, and set price based on demand, to maximise profits.
Yes, of course, and it’s a very complicated process which depends a lot on the particular details of the industry. However I find the blank assertion that the firms will not pass any cost savings onto the consumer (especially in a highly competitive industry like soft drinks) to be not tenable. There is the market force pushing prices towards the average (not marginal) cost and while it may be counterbalanced by many things it’s still there. Look at, say, electronics—as the costs drop so do prices.
but they want to be able to price-discriminate to make additional profits.
I understand price discrimination, but that’s irrelevant for the subject under discussion which is whether the consumer will ever see part of the cost savings.
I don’t know what you mean by ridiculous.
Going to the supermarket “on a much-more-frequent basis, just to check the price of Coke” implies a ridiculously low value of your time. I don’t know of anyone who goes to the supermarket just to check prices on soft drinks. And in this particular example we’re talking much more about information rather than advertising. To illustrate the difference, if you subscribe to receive emails about Coke promotions that would get you all you need. Expensive video clips showing attractive women orgasming as Coke touches their lips are pretty useless for your purposes.
Advertising costs are effectively paid for by consumers
You keep asserting this. You provide no evidence or argument that it’s true. I agree that advertising costs are likely to be paid for by consumers in (say) the petrol market, although given that market is complicated by franchises, even there it may not be true. I think they are very unlikely to be paid for by consumers in markets featuring (partial) monopolies, such as Coke/Pepsi. So no, I don’t think that if Coke quadrupled its advertising budget it would be able to pass on the cost to consumers.
You seem to think the soft drink market is “highly competitive.” And you’re right, in the sense that everyone is trying to bring the best products to market, to make a profit. But you’re wrong, in the sense that the products are not direct substitutes in terms of consumer experience. Coke does not taste the same as Pepsi, and only the Coca-Cola Corporation knows how to make Coke. This is why Coke can sell their product for twice the price of some supermarket own-brand cola; they are earning rents on their intellectual property. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for Pepsi. This is a partially-monopolistic market, very different from the market for electronics, where the products are functional substitutes, and so are close to commodities, and indeed, cost savings are passed on.
And note that we see the most advertising precisely in partially monopolistic markets, and very little in commodity markets, precisely because of the effect on prices.
You keep asserting this. You provide no evidence or argument that it’s true.
I am sorry, but what other options are there? The advertising costs are paid out of interest on the firm’s bank balances? Out of tax subsidies? Out of charity donations?
The firm’s costs are paid out of the firm’s revenues. If the firm’s revenues come from selling things to consumers, the consumers are paying for the firm’s costs—all of them, including production, distribution, advertising, office space, janitors, and executives’ membership in the golf club. The consumers get the product in exchange, of course.
But you’re wrong, in the sense that the products are not direct substitutes in terms of consumer experience.
As you mentioned, “You keep asserting this. You provide no evidence or argument that it’s true.” Let me provide a counterexample.
Many fast-food chains have exclusive contracts with Coke or Pepsi. McDonalds, for example, serves only Coke. Given this, you can directly observe whether Coke is accepted as a substitute for Pepsi: often enough at the counter you can hear the following exchange:
-- What’s your drink? -- Pepsi (automatic answer as that’s what the person is used to drinking) -- Sorry, we have only Coke.
And at this point the customer can either accept the substitution (and say “Coke is fine”) or decline it (and say “I’ll have X instead”). I don’t have actual data, but I’ve seen this case happen many times and the number of people who will accept Coke is much higher than the number of people who will refuse it.
very different from the market for electronics, where the products are functional substitutes
Coke and Pepsi are functional substitutes. They don’t taste exactly the same, but then Samsung’s and HTC’s phones don’t look and behave exactly the same either.
note that we see the most advertising precisely in partially monopolistic markets, and very little in commodity markets, precisely because of the effect on prices.
Citation needed. Advertising is basically buying market share. I would argue that we see most advertising in highly competitive markets where you can buy market share. That means that you can differentiate your product and convince part of the public that the product is better than the other guy’s and not just because it’s cheaper. And I’m not willing to call all markets with differentiable products “partially monopolistic”.
Your ability to persuade an average bloke that petrol of brand X is better than petrol of brand Y is limited. Therefore your ability to buy market share is limited. Therefore you don’t spend much money on advertising. But you ability to persuade the same bloke that beer X is better than beer Y is much higher. Thus you can buy market share and advertising beer is worth it (for the firm, of course).
I am sorry, but what other options are there? The advertising costs are paid out of interest on the firm’s bank balances? Out of tax subsidies? Out of charity donations?
Out of the firm’s profits.
The firm’s costs are paid out of the firm’s revenues. If the firm’s revenues come from selling things to consumers, the consumers are paying for the firm’s costs—all of them
Yes, this is true, in a sense. But it says nothing about what changes when one of these costs change. If the cost of office space increases, does that raise prices for consumers, or does it mean the firm has less to spend on golf club membership, or a mixture, or what?
Consider the toy example I gave above when I’m selling Coke to Alan and Bob—if you recall, I set the price at £2 per litre, and am making £1.90 in profit. Now suppose I start spending £1 in advertising. Do I raise the price to £3? Nope; I already set my price at the level that would maximise my revenues. It just means my profits are now only 90p.
Regarding substitutability: yes, Coke and Pepsi are partial substitutes, and electronic goods are not completely commodities. But Colas are much less substitutable than Samsung and HTC, or Dell and HP. The question is one of degree.
So try a model where all cola costs 10p a litre to produce, Alan values Coke and Pepsi equally at £3 a litre, Bob and Chris value Coke at £3 a litre, Pepsi at £1 a litre, and Dave and Edward value Coke at £1 a litre, Pepsi at £3 a litre. In equilibrium, how much will Coke sell for? How much will Pepsi sell for? Now suppose Coke and Pepsi each spend £1 on advertising. How much will Coke sell for? How much will Pepsi sell for?
Advertising is basically buying market share. I would argue that we see most advertising in highly competitive markets where you can buy market share. That means that you can differentiate your product and convince part of the public that the product is better than the other guy’s and not just because it’s cheaper. And I’m not willing to call all markets with differentiable products “partially monopolistic”.
Yes, we see advertising in “competitive” markets in the sense you are using (which appears to be something akin to “contested”), but not in the economic sense of “perfect competition” i.e. commodities. You are not disagreeing with me there. You may not be willing to call markets with differentiable products “partially monopolistic”, but I’m afraid I’m using standard usage. See e.g. Wikipedia:
Monopolistic competition is a type of imperfect competition such that many producers sell products that are differentiated from one another (e.g. by branding or quality) and hence are not perfect substitutes.
You should also note that as advertising is a fixed cost, not a marginal cost, so it wouldn’t affect the marginal cost anyway...
Unfortunately I feel like I’ve reached the end of the line trying to explain this to you.
Bollocks. Profits = revenues—costs. You can’t pay costs out of profits.
I already set my price at the level that would maximise my revenues.
The whole point of advertising is to change that level. You’re spending a pound per litre in order to change the equation which determines the proper price.
If you expect your advertising to reduce your profits why would you advertise in the first place?
Hi you two (Lumifer and Salemicus). A are you aware that you are having a wordy public conversation on a somewhat political topic more than two times deeper than the LW comment thread depth? I had trouble even finding the start of your conversion due to the limits. No one will vote on you and you clutter the recent comments. I recommend to both of you to discuss this as a privat conversation.
Thank you for taking the time to giving feedback this deep in the thread (hurray LW notification system). I reconsider my recommendation now. And will look away next time.
I am aware that we are having a wordy public conversation. I don’t consider microeconomics to be political, even “somewhat”. I don’t care whether anyone will vote on these posts or not. As to “cluttering” recent comments, all posts do that. If you don’t want to read this subthread, avert your eyes.
Hi you two (Lumifer and Salemicus). A are you aware that you are having a wordy public conversation on a somewhat political topic more than two times deeper than the LW comment thread depth? I had trouble even finding the start of your conversion due to the limits. No one will vote on you and you clutter the recent comments. I recommend to both of you to discuss this as a privat conversation.
I am not sufficiently familiar with it and, frankly, I don’t care enough about the topic to go read a bunch of economics papers and then fisk them. My data-less suspicion is that bans on advertising are a consequence of reduced competition and/or near-monopoly behavior by incumbents, just a harm to consumers is also a consequence of the same thing, and people misinterpret the correlation between “less advertising” and “harm to consumers”.
So, you pointed out the benefits. What about costs? Why do you believe the benefits are higher than costs?
Also, you’re ignoring the advertising for established products, as well as for failed products (e.g. the New Coke).
Note that I’m not saying that all advertising is harmful and that zero advertising is the desired state. I am saying that my best guess at the “optimal” point (which balances costs against public benefits) is such that I think the current levels of commercial advertising are above that point. Reducing advertising would get us closer to that optimum—though, obviously, I don’t know where exactly it is.
Of course the optimal point which balances costs against public benefits is different from the optimal point which balances costs against the firm’s benefits.
Let’s not get quite this ridiculous X-)
That’s a cop-out :-) Besides, adversarial competition in a free market optimizes for the firm’s benefits from advertising, not for the public benefits.
Because, as you mentioned, there is “adversarial competition in a free market”. That includes price wars, promotional coupons, etc. By your logic, there should never be promotions for a product—why lessen your profits for no good reason?
But I don’t see costs to consumers here. Savings would not be passed on to consumers (see below), so what is the problem? That some people find the adverts annoying? Sure, but others find them entertaining. Coke in particular has had many adverts that have entered public consciousness.
This is exactly the kind of claim that I think should have to face a very heavy burden. Your WAG (which you cheerfully admit is not based on a careful reading of the literature) is that the public costs of advertising (which you do not specify) are greater than the (equally unspecified) public benefits. Because you can’t specify or quantify any costs or benefits, you can’t say how much you’d like to reduce advertising by, but it’s just got to be reduced, dag nabbit!
So? That only implies that firms pass on cost savings if we have perfect competition (driving price down to marginal cost). If you have imperfect competition, firms are (at least partially) price-setters, not price-takers, and set price based on demand, to maximise profits. For an extreme example of imperfect competition, a Damien Hirst artwork that was cheap to make doesn’t necessarily sell for any less than one that was expensive to make. For a standard example of (pseudo-)perfect competition, see petrol—it’s an essentially indistinguishable commodity, so all petrol stations sell it at basically the same price (small changes based on location), and cost rises/falls are passed on to the consumer.
On the contrary, promotions for a product are an excellent sign that you don’t have perfect competition—that’s why you never see a sale on petrol (see above). Companies run promotions because they are selling well above marginal cost, but they want to be able to price-discriminate to make additional profits. For example, suppose I am selling Coke, and there are two people, Alan and Bob. Coke costs me 10p per litre to produce. Alan values Coke at £2.50 per litre, and would like to buy 1 litre per day. Bob values Coke at 60p per litre, and would like to buy 1 litre per day. So I price the Coke at £2 per litre, and make £1.90 (Alan pockets 50p consumer surplus, Bob doesn’t buy). That’s more profitable to me than pricing the Coke at 50p per litre, because although I’d make an additional profitable sale to Bob, it would reduce my profits from the Alan transaction by more. What I really want to do is sell Coke to Alan at £2 per litre, but Bob at 50p per litre, and that is where promotions etc come into play. Ideally I will find a way to advertise my promotion to Bob, without letting Alan find out.
I don’t know what you mean by ridiculous. I buy a lot of Coke, but I am a thrifty shopper. I carefully collect coupons etc for discounted products (not just Coke) to take advantage of the cost savings, and buy staple products like Coke only when they are on promotion. In the absence of advertising for discounts etc, I definitely would go to the supermarket more often to check for offers. This would be an annoying waste of my time. There are plenty of other people like me.
I feel there’s some disconnect here. Advertising costs are effectively paid for by consumers so of course the magnitude of these costs impacts the consumers. Imagine them doubled or quadrupled—you don’t think this would result in higher prices? Or do you believe the prices to be a ratchet going one way only so that reduced costs never lead to reduced prices?
Since it’s the consumers who pay for advertising, the direct public costs of advertising are pretty easy to estimate: that’s the revenue of the advertising industry. You can, of course, then start adjusting this number is a variety of ways.
Public benefits, I have no good estimate for.
My WAG is, of course, a WAG, but I don’t see why your position that the level of advertising expenses happens to be optimal for the public benefit should enjoy the advantages of being the default baseline.
The reasoning behind my estimate is pretty simple. Firms set the levels of advertising expenditure based on their estimates of the benefits to the firm. My assumption is that any advertisement brings more benefit to the firm which places it than to the public at large. Given this, the market-determined level of advertising is going to be too high from the public benefit point of view.
Yes, of course, and it’s a very complicated process which depends a lot on the particular details of the industry. However I find the blank assertion that the firms will not pass any cost savings onto the consumer (especially in a highly competitive industry like soft drinks) to be not tenable. There is the market force pushing prices towards the average (not marginal) cost and while it may be counterbalanced by many things it’s still there. Look at, say, electronics—as the costs drop so do prices.
I understand price discrimination, but that’s irrelevant for the subject under discussion which is whether the consumer will ever see part of the cost savings.
Going to the supermarket “on a much-more-frequent basis, just to check the price of Coke” implies a ridiculously low value of your time. I don’t know of anyone who goes to the supermarket just to check prices on soft drinks. And in this particular example we’re talking much more about information rather than advertising. To illustrate the difference, if you subscribe to receive emails about Coke promotions that would get you all you need. Expensive video clips showing attractive women orgasming as Coke touches their lips are pretty useless for your purposes.
You keep asserting this. You provide no evidence or argument that it’s true. I agree that advertising costs are likely to be paid for by consumers in (say) the petrol market, although given that market is complicated by franchises, even there it may not be true. I think they are very unlikely to be paid for by consumers in markets featuring (partial) monopolies, such as Coke/Pepsi. So no, I don’t think that if Coke quadrupled its advertising budget it would be able to pass on the cost to consumers.
You seem to think the soft drink market is “highly competitive.” And you’re right, in the sense that everyone is trying to bring the best products to market, to make a profit. But you’re wrong, in the sense that the products are not direct substitutes in terms of consumer experience. Coke does not taste the same as Pepsi, and only the Coca-Cola Corporation knows how to make Coke. This is why Coke can sell their product for twice the price of some supermarket own-brand cola; they are earning rents on their intellectual property. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for Pepsi. This is a partially-monopolistic market, very different from the market for electronics, where the products are functional substitutes, and so are close to commodities, and indeed, cost savings are passed on.
And note that we see the most advertising precisely in partially monopolistic markets, and very little in commodity markets, precisely because of the effect on prices.
I am sorry, but what other options are there? The advertising costs are paid out of interest on the firm’s bank balances? Out of tax subsidies? Out of charity donations?
The firm’s costs are paid out of the firm’s revenues. If the firm’s revenues come from selling things to consumers, the consumers are paying for the firm’s costs—all of them, including production, distribution, advertising, office space, janitors, and executives’ membership in the golf club. The consumers get the product in exchange, of course.
As you mentioned, “You keep asserting this. You provide no evidence or argument that it’s true.” Let me provide a counterexample.
Many fast-food chains have exclusive contracts with Coke or Pepsi. McDonalds, for example, serves only Coke. Given this, you can directly observe whether Coke is accepted as a substitute for Pepsi: often enough at the counter you can hear the following exchange:
-- What’s your drink?
-- Pepsi (automatic answer as that’s what the person is used to drinking)
-- Sorry, we have only Coke.
And at this point the customer can either accept the substitution (and say “Coke is fine”) or decline it (and say “I’ll have X instead”). I don’t have actual data, but I’ve seen this case happen many times and the number of people who will accept Coke is much higher than the number of people who will refuse it.
Coke and Pepsi are functional substitutes. They don’t taste exactly the same, but then Samsung’s and HTC’s phones don’t look and behave exactly the same either.
Citation needed. Advertising is basically buying market share. I would argue that we see most advertising in highly competitive markets where you can buy market share. That means that you can differentiate your product and convince part of the public that the product is better than the other guy’s and not just because it’s cheaper. And I’m not willing to call all markets with differentiable products “partially monopolistic”.
Your ability to persuade an average bloke that petrol of brand X is better than petrol of brand Y is limited. Therefore your ability to buy market share is limited. Therefore you don’t spend much money on advertising. But you ability to persuade the same bloke that beer X is better than beer Y is much higher. Thus you can buy market share and advertising beer is worth it (for the firm, of course).
Out of the firm’s profits.
Yes, this is true, in a sense. But it says nothing about what changes when one of these costs change. If the cost of office space increases, does that raise prices for consumers, or does it mean the firm has less to spend on golf club membership, or a mixture, or what?
Consider the toy example I gave above when I’m selling Coke to Alan and Bob—if you recall, I set the price at £2 per litre, and am making £1.90 in profit. Now suppose I start spending £1 in advertising. Do I raise the price to £3? Nope; I already set my price at the level that would maximise my revenues. It just means my profits are now only 90p.
Regarding substitutability: yes, Coke and Pepsi are partial substitutes, and electronic goods are not completely commodities. But Colas are much less substitutable than Samsung and HTC, or Dell and HP. The question is one of degree.
So try a model where all cola costs 10p a litre to produce, Alan values Coke and Pepsi equally at £3 a litre, Bob and Chris value Coke at £3 a litre, Pepsi at £1 a litre, and Dave and Edward value Coke at £1 a litre, Pepsi at £3 a litre. In equilibrium, how much will Coke sell for? How much will Pepsi sell for? Now suppose Coke and Pepsi each spend £1 on advertising. How much will Coke sell for? How much will Pepsi sell for?
Yes, we see advertising in “competitive” markets in the sense you are using (which appears to be something akin to “contested”), but not in the economic sense of “perfect competition” i.e. commodities. You are not disagreeing with me there. You may not be willing to call markets with differentiable products “partially monopolistic”, but I’m afraid I’m using standard usage. See e.g. Wikipedia:
You should also note that as advertising is a fixed cost, not a marginal cost, so it wouldn’t affect the marginal cost anyway...
Unfortunately I feel like I’ve reached the end of the line trying to explain this to you.
Bollocks. Profits = revenues—costs. You can’t pay costs out of profits.
The whole point of advertising is to change that level. You’re spending a pound per litre in order to change the equation which determines the proper price.
If you expect your advertising to reduce your profits why would you advertise in the first place?
Hi you two (Lumifer and Salemicus). A are you aware that you are having a wordy public conversation on a somewhat political topic more than two times deeper than the LW comment thread depth? I had trouble even finding the start of your conversion due to the limits. No one will vote on you and you clutter the recent comments. I recommend to both of you to discuss this as a privat conversation.
As it happens I was finding the conversation interesting.
Thank you for taking the time to giving feedback this deep in the thread (hurray LW notification system). I reconsider my recommendation now. And will look away next time.
I am aware that we are having a wordy public conversation. I don’t consider microeconomics to be political, even “somewhat”. I don’t care whether anyone will vote on these posts or not. As to “cluttering” recent comments, all posts do that. If you don’t want to read this subthread, avert your eyes.
I will avert my eyes. I accept your decision. It was a recommendation and you don’t need to take it.
Hi you two (Lumifer and Salemicus). A are you aware that you are having a wordy public conversation on a somewhat political topic more than two times deeper than the LW comment thread depth? I had trouble even finding the start of your conversion due to the limits. No one will vote on you and you clutter the recent comments. I recommend to both of you to discuss this as a privat conversation.