except that the object of transferred allegiance is typically some more or less abstracted group, rather than a concrete political unit. (The vulgarity, silliness, malignancy, and dishonesty are by no means lacking, of course.)
That’s very easy to imagine as a concept… but are you really making a falsifiable claim that Western intelligentsia typically does all that right now? “Africans/Blacks/Gays/Arabs/Immigrants/Trotskyists/Opponents of evil regime X are such a virtuous and naturally blessed group that they can do no wrong, and everything that they believe as a group must therefore also be correct.”? I hardly recall seeing this kind of sentiment expressed by modern authors with any frequency*; if they have do have partisan feelings for some group (e.g. articles by straight liberal people in favor of gay marriage), they’re usually more circumspect—and more sane (as in, less doublethink & vulgar use of unspoken assumptions) - about it. Maybe you and me just read the same words differently.
I know you’re likely to prefer avoiding any mention of individual “respectable” authors in such context, but… any examples? Please? (I’d like some where such association with a distantly-viewed group is more or less explicit, of course, and I’m also curious to see if you feel that people renowned as cynics and skeptics fall prey to such sentiment.)
-* For “Opponents of evil regime X”, see the ongoing coverage of the “Arab Spring” (yes, the naming does display a little partisan bias); do the overwhelming majority of publications imply that 100% of the rebels commit no atrocities, have exclusively noble motivations and are of good moral character, share a lot of priors with Western liberals, etc? If so, I haven’t noticed it; in fact, the most partisan pro-uprising source so far has arguably been Al-Jazeera, not e.g. Huffington Post or Guardian.
“Africans/Blacks/Gays/Arabs/Immigrants/Trotskyists/Opponents of evil regime X are such a virtuous and naturally blessed group that they can do no wrong, and everything that they believe as a group must therefore also be correct.”
They won’t make that statement explicitly, but they will accuse people who point out specific cases where said group isn’t virtuous or is doing something wrong of racism/sexism/homophobia/Islamophobia/victim bashing.
Yup, but that’s mostly unfalsifiable; people with different values can find different things unacceptably racist/*phobic/whatever. And they aren’t really hiding the fact that such accusations are just part of ideological warfare, or that they are partisan on those issues.
Uh-huh. But there’s a debate on truth-seeking vs. avoiding damage to society about this sort of thing even here on LW, as you know. Also, are there that many articles that only counter a listing of [favoured group]’s flaws with “That’s *-ist!”? At the very least and the worst level of argument commonly found, the writers try to make it look like the group’s virtues or just its “normality” to ordinary Western folks outweigh the criticism. I’m drawing on my impressions of The Guardian (which I read sporadically to see what British intelligentsia is up to), specifically of its CIF section.
Uh-huh. But there’s a debate on truth-seeking vs. avoiding damage to society about this sort of thing even here on LW, as you know. Also, are there that many articles that only counter a listing of [favoured group]’s flaws with “That’s *-ist!”?
Well, one historical example is the reaction to the Moynihan Report. It’s by no means the only example, but it’s the one where the people dismissing the report as racist and “victim bashing” probably did the most damage to society.
It seems very unfortunate to me that the concept of “Blaming the victim” has been founded upon such an ill-advised swipe at that report. Certainly such a phenomenon is painfully apparent all the time in daily life and politics, yet Moynihan’s intentions to me seem neither aggressive or very patronizing, nor even fuelled by conservative ideology, even if it could end up as ammunition for an unscurpulous ideologist. (he was in the Kennedy administration, so he might well have been a liberal technocrat)
Now this is pure conjencture and indeed fantasy on my part, but I guess that Ryan might’ve been motivated by the “Hostile media effect”, assuming that the report was a nefarious reactionary ploy and missing even the fact that Moynihan places nearly all the blame for the cultural dysfunctions of the black community squarely upon white oppression! (Hardly thought of as a right-wing thought pattern.)
I’m not suggesting that such an accusation of American culture and whites’ old behavior towards blacks must conversely be left-wing silliness; the logic of Moynihan’s explanation seems sound enough to me—it might be a cliche, but it’s probably true. (But then, I believe that Noam Chomsky is frequently spot-on and somewhat of an authority—what else is to be expected of me.)
Wow. That’s actually a stunningly interesting report. The conflict caused is also very interesting: one could also argue that the report itself, coming out at such a time, could have done more damage to society than its obfuscation did. The opponents of the Civil Rights movement would, I think, have weaponized it and used it to blame the Blacks entirely for their own problems, not to say they didn’t have partial responsibility, of course.
The opponents of the Civil Rights movement would, I think, have weaponized it and used it to blame the Blacks entirely for their own problems, not to say they didn’t have partial responsibility, of course.
My thoughts exactly! Even today you see the more extreme elements of the Right scouring the net in what can be described as a search for ammunition, their bottom-line being already as entrenched as that of the Left extremists. And most of the radical Right do conspiciously seek to absolve traditional society of whatever stripe they prefer of absolutely any moral guilt. Back to the report in question, it seems well-founded in asserting that the black community had some faulty traditions and regressive ways of raising its new generations (as, from a modern perspective, might some other communities). However, it doesn’t outright deny the economic angle of the problem, nor, especially, does it paint a picture of fundamental hostility between the races, yet it is undoubtedly used to “support” such a picture even now by the real racists!
I wonder if Moynihan himself feared that key the message he apparently tried to send—“White people, in view of their historical fortune, have a duty to help struggling minorities out in an intelligent way, even if it might hurt some feelings in the short run when some structural elements of society need to be altered”—would be co-opted by some unsympathetic fucks to “prove” that n**rs are culturally inferior and should be subjugated by the “superior” races.
Even today you see the more extreme elements of the Right scouring the net in what can be described as a search for ammunition, their bottom-line being already as entrenched as that of the Left extremists.
Why does right wing extremism scare you so much more than left wing extremism when the former is utterly despised as the definition of evil by most Westerners while the latter is only ever lukewarmly condemned?
Do extreme right wingers have some particular super power that I’m not aware of? The right wing are the guys who have been on a losing streak since Stalingrad and if you listen to Moldbug for a century before that too. I need some actual evidence that I should worry about them getting power anywhere in the West without being bombed into the stone age by the US five minutes later (bombing European right wing extremists, especially racist ones is the stuff of victory, moral superiority and war fantasies for them—check out American video games, adventure novels and action movie villains), than say of me personally being struck by lightning when I’m walking my dog on a rainy Saturday evening.
Reading some of your comments I can’t shake the feeling that you for some reason see their intellectual ammunition as so much more formidable than what is usually consumed by intellectuals that it despite the massive incentives against it threatens to one day quite suddenly break out and become popular among the smart fraction. Is this a correct reading?
Reading some of your comments I can’t shake the feeling that you for some reason see their intellectual ammunition as so much more formidable than what is usually consumed by intellectuals that it despite the massive incentives against it threatens to one day quite suddenly break out and become popular among the smart fraction. Is this a correct reading?
Sort of yes! I’ve always been a little terrified of the power of naked, unashamed technocracy, of either despotic or Randian aspect. Even the more ruthless bits of Moldbug’s (rather comfortable and watered-down) technocratic fascism are, I fear, hardly a glimpse of what’s to come, if the “rationality” of geeks and engineers, finally free from either today’s humanist quasi-theocracy and the sober bounds of old-time coonservatism, gets free rein. Perhaps many here on LW, especially non-neurotypical people (who I tend to sympathize with a lot, but also be wary of if their condition includes any change in empathy) would be tempted by such a Ubermensch thing. Think of a hybrid of Speer, Eichmann and a weak UFAI and you’ll understand how this nightmare of mine goes.
(I’m actually integrating a sinister-yet-rationalist one world government based on these fears in my science fantasy novel—instead of a generic villainous empire I started out with—except that in my story it was formed by voices of moderation in high places after the Axis victory in WW2 and the ensuing cold war, not as the radical elitist movement that I can phantom it as in the real world.)
Sort of yes! I’ve always been a little terrified of the power of naked, unashamed technocracy
“Naked, unashamed technocracy” strikes me as much more similar to the position advocated by the left (ETA: especially the socialist left) then the right.
Oh, it’s advocated by the left, alright (damn you language), but e.g. Stalinism was much less that and much more feudalism than Westerners commonly assume; it was quite the underground struggle, and Stalin himself (even without supposing any conspiracy) fell to it, as everyone around was either genuinely too afraid of disrupting him the morning he had his heart attack/whatever it was, or consciously decided to abandon him.
My point is, if you scratch a Stalinist you’re likely to find a barbarian; those smart, brave and virtuous alt-right-wingers strike me as the only sort of people who could potentially succeed in truly implementing such a regime.
(I’m actually integrating a sinister-yet-rationalist one world government based on these fears in my science fantasy novel—instead of a generic villainous empire I started out with—except that in my story it was formed by voices of moderation in high places after the Axis victory in WW2 and the ensuing cold war, not as the radical elitist movement that I can phantom it as in the real world.)
That is a very interesting concept! I’d love to read more about it, if you are writing in English and have any drafts you would like someone to read or will eventually publish, please make a post on LW!
The novel’s background is that Nazi and Japanese research into the nature of reality in an attempt to access “magic” or create “ontotechnological weapons” (credit for the word “Ontotechnology” goes to EY) pretty much broke the self-sealing “reality bubble” of Earth, placed there by an interdimensional supercivilization fighting its own civil war for the Universe itself. That supercivilization’s factions are perceived as “Angels” and “Demons”; they have made themselves into ontologically basic mental entities and the former are trying to impose absolute objective morality upon the Universe (which IS absolutely good and benign for any species that comes within its influence) while the latter are ruthless anarchists and opppose any rules at all, especially deontological ones. As humans were predicted to have unusually strong reality-warping potential, Earth was sealed away in a local ceasefire that forbade both recruiting from it. After the “bubble” began to tear, the “demons”, acting without any hierarchy, just spontaneously invaded, making some people into their playthings, dragging others away for use as psychic slave-soldiers and helping start WW3 in the ongoing panic. As Japan and the Reich, blaming each other, were preparing to obliterate the remnants of civilization, powerful technocratic elements on both sides independently launched coups, came to an agreement and instated a new world order that was essentially a megacorporation (I thought of this before reading any Moldbug). It shaped humanity into a great and complex hierarchy, where daily strife and the fullfillment of urges by the population would accumulate the “psychic” reality-warping energies in huge resonators to drain every drop of them, including from people gifted enough to become “mages”. The pooled energy was used to assist in brainwashing the masses, as a shield to keep rampaging demons away from the major arcologies, and to lash out at the barren and twisted Wastelands, where barbaric, Nietzchean sorcerer-cults now contended with each other and the infernal hordes.
At the same time, there was a divine intervention as well. The “angels”, before being driven out of our meta-region of the Universe by the disaster, took volunteers with especially strong psychic potential and moral fibre with them to fight in the endless war, while for all the other humans whom they found worthy—about 5-10% of the population after a century of life under brutal totalitarian regimes—they created a small utopian realm with impenetrable defenses near the North Pole. Founded upon some weird rules, restrictions and gifts, it’s essentially going to be anime-like in my description. You know, heartbreakingly beautiful vistas, surreal technology like dragon AIs, ornithopters and crystal exoskeletons, an elaborate system of universities, guilds and knightly orders for everyone’s talents to flourish, everything is always romantic, etc.
However, it comes at a price, as the trope demands; the ruling council is allowed to use utilitarian logic for hard decisions, and what they’re going to do with it is my main plotline. The utopian culture sends agents Outside to help people and thwart the bad guys’ attempts to penetrate their barrier or otherwise harm them, like Banks’ Contact and Special Circumstances. And they support a network of resistance cells in the utilitarian megacorp’s arcologies. Think like Al-Quaeda, but somewhat sympathetic and with Gnostic mysticism. The protagonist is a young soldier/technician in the Resistance, who starts out depressed, demotivated and Shinji-like (write what you know!); he’s hopelessly in love with a female agent of the Utopia that’s working with his cell on something top-secret. In the beginning, the cell is wiped out by a State Security raid and the agent is taken prisoner, but not before she implants the mortally injured protagonist with her hyper-advanced drone, making him into a superpowered zombie cyborg. Stumbling away from the wreckage, he meets up with a hacker from the arcology—who’s part of a subculture stealing psychic energy and addicted to it—and that hacker’s tsundere sister, a promising social engineer/spin doctor/brainwasher who’s devoted to the megacorp at first but slowly agrees to become a double agent. Together they unveil a conspiracy involving a weird urban legend, said to be a memetic virus called the “Invisible Dawn”—which is the title of the novel. Whew.
Unfortunately for you, I’m writing in Russian, as attempting something novel-length in English would’ve at this point only become a drain of my mental energy; I’ll need another decade of practice before I can use it as easily as Russian.
You would also describe yourself as having beliefs that correspond to reality, but neither you nor me nor the general public would claim that you’re some kind of extremist on account, say, of your posts here; you look like a typical secularist conservative/libertarian type to me. While we would clearly disagree about many of each other’s values or instrumental decisions, we definitely wouldn’t believe that the other is a horrible enemy of civilization.
I know you’re likely to prefer avoiding any mention of individual “respectable” authors in such context, but… any examples? Please?
OK, I’ll try to give a current example, with the caveat that I’m giving it purely for illustrative purposes, not to start unwelcome politically charged discussions.
Observe the ongoing controversy over the recent shooting in Florida. Now, I’m not going to speculate on the details of the case itself at all—for the sake of the argument, you can assume any version of the events you wish, and what I’ll say will still apply.
Whatever may have actually occurred in this case, there is no doubt that: (1) conclusive evidence of what really happened is still lacking, and even less evidence was available when the controversy erupted some weeks ago, and yet (2) numerous respectable voices of the mainstream opinion rushed to express passionate condemnation of the shooter that went far beyond anything that could be reasonably inferred from the evidence, often going even beyond mere bias and spin into outright lies and fabrication. Even if, hypothetically, some evidence eventually emerges showing that their general conclusion was right, and the shooter really did something as nasty as they believe, it is simply undeniable that they have gone far beyond anything that might be justified given the presently available knowledge. (And it’s easy to find plenty of examples of vulgarity, silliness, malignancy, and dishonesty in their reactions.)
Now, how to explain these reactions? Clearly, some people’s reactions are easily explained with just plain “nationalism” in Orwell’s sense, since they share their own identity with the person who got killed. But what about those who have no such connection, which certainly includes the majority of the respectable opinion that got inflamed with such passionate intensity? It seems to me like a clear-cut case of “transferred nationalism” in Orwell’s sense.
(Again, I really hate to introduce any discussions of controversial daily politics on LW. I’m giving an example like this one only because I was specifically asked to do so, and I don’t intend to follow up with any specific discussion of the case. I’m interested in it only as a case study for examining the mechanisms of public opinion demonstrated in it.)
Okay, thanks. However, based on what I know of the US, nearly any murder or other serious incident caught in the news where the races of the victim and the accused were different would practically always provoke a hysterical reaction wracked with all the usual American neuroses. There’s nothing exceptionally bad about this case’s handling that hasn’t been true for a very long while IMO.
(Well, except for pre-Civil War times, when things might have been a little less convoulted but positively flaunted the heuristics we now find disgusting; the mainstream wouldn’t stop for a moment before assigning guilt based on how non-Anglo-Saxon* a participant was, and the radical anti-racists would jump to the opposite conclusion, often in a patronizing “Uncle Tom” way. Can’t point to a specific case from which I got this picture, and you might be justified in calling it oversimplified, but I’m pretty sure that it’s not just a modern political caricature of the bad old times.)
-* Were the Southern whites also considered Anglo-Saxon in the broad sense? If no, what word did they use to separate themselves and e.g. the Irish/Eastern European immigrants or other “inferior” whites?
However, based on what I know of the US, nearly any murder or other serious incident caught in the news where the races of the victim and the accused were different would practically always provoke a hysterical reaction wracked with all the usual American neuroses.
There is plenty of counter evidence to this.
Even some stuff that would seem to have all the building blocks for media exposure and revenue generation, like say the recent case of a home invasion where a young man sexually assaults and kills a 85 year old woman and beats her husband to the point of him being hospitalized.
Huh? So… what do you think makes the difference between this case and the ones that failed to detonate? If your answer looks too mind-killing to you, please PM me.
However, based on what I know of the US, nearly any murder or other serious incident caught in the news where the races of the victim and the accused were different would practically always provoke a hysterical reaction wracked with all the usual American neuroses. There’s nothing exceptionally bad about this case’s handling that hasn’t been true for a very long while IMO.
Well, I am giving it as an example of standard and long-standing attitudes of the sort that Orwell described as “transferred nationalism,” not some novel phenomenon.
Well, how about, say, Germany or Canada? The racial issues are obviously less charged here, and not due to their especial monoethnicity - and it appears to me from outside view that while people there might be unimaginably biased on other issues, they are at least more polite, less prone to contagnious hysteria and just have a higher sanity waterline as communities.
There are several reasons for why the prestige press is so fundamentalist in its fervor to stereowipe… The third is ideology: knowledge is evil. The fourth is the sheer will to power.
Sorry, but I think this is too partisan and arational (has Sailer even tried to imagine what his “enemies” think and believe before professing that they are basically Stalin and O’Brien?) to quote on LW. You could’ve just linked to the post.
The fact that Zimmerman stinks so badly at his self-appointed job of “neighborhood watch captain,” it led him to kill an innocent man. (If you think Martin was actually committing a crime, I can probably give you 2-to-1 odds.) In the absence of social condemnation, Zimmerman might continue carrying a gun in pursuit of his hobby. The media has put itself in charge of condemnation. Since some of their leaders seem very stupid, we would expect them to make mistakes. (In fact, you could argue they stink at this job and shouldn’t be in charge of condemnation at all.)
The fact that Florida law might allow two men to “stand their ground” and escalate the use of force until someone dies also seems relevant. If it actually happened then Florida voters should know. But I don’t think this played more than a small role in the media’s actions, because they seem too stupid on the whole to make decisions based on policy concerns.
You are aware that according to the best theory based on public available evidence Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin until the latter was beating his head on the pavement? Also in that kind of situation “stand your ground” laws aren’t all that relevant since there is no way to retreat.
Edit: Also, your “media incompetence” theory doesn’t explain why all the mistakes went in the same direction.
By saying “incompetence” you make it sound like I think the media wants to create accurate beliefs about reality, but fails due to other factors. This seems as silly as thinking the human brain evolved to get the right answer, in general, but has all these extraneous biases mucking it up. I thought I explained how I see the media’s motives.
I don’t understand what you mean. Are you assuming that beating someone’s head on the pavement would count as a crime? Because like I said, Trayvon Martin had a perfect right under Florida law to stand his ground if the strange man with the gun genuinely seemed threatening.
Edit: Also, your “media incompetence” theory doesn’t explain why all the mistakes went in the same direction.
Why not? All their mistakes seemed to go in one direction back when Chris T.N.O. Matthews was saying Al Gore “would lick the bathroom floor” to be President. But I explain that as the result of personal dislike combined with a tribal sense of offense at Bill Clinton’s actions, not a bias against Democrats. Why on Earth would you not expect idiots like that to fly off the handle at the death of an innocent child?
I’d like to mention that depending on the situation and the regime in question people might attach their nationalism to the regime itself (denying its evils) rather than to its opponents.
Heh, of course. I see it all the time in Russian right-of-center publications. But wasn’t the blame here being placed upon stereotypical liberal-minded people? I don’t see any liberals gushing about how unfairly e.g. Fidel Castro is being treated, or how the Viet Cong were all righteous and noble freedom fighters who only wanted peace and treated enemies with respect (of course, most people—including me—are more sympathetic to them than the American soldiers when talking about the Vietnam war, but that’s to be expected given the vast objective differences in the combatants’ situations).
I don’t see any liberals gushing about how unfairly e.g. Fidel Castro is being treated, or how the Viet Cong were all righteous and noble freedom fighters who only wanted peace and treated enemies with respect
Well, those people certainly don’t make their living by writing or abstract thinking. I meant liberal/moderate leftist journalists, professional writers, political experts, etc. Celebrities known to be conservative also often say misguided ideological things, except that there’s less of them in America because conservatives there typically stay away from the entertainment industry (both due to natural predisposition and active self-segregation, I’d guess).*
(In other countries the political divide looks less sharp in general, and proeminent people tend to express their political views more subtly too.)
- I think it was pretty silly of Moldbug to spin a theory of how everybody-who’s-anybody is carrying the “progressivism” meme in America because it’s supposedly better adapted; it’s clear that there’s simple Hanson-style signaling at work in Hollywood and elsewhere; Moldbug’s assertion that academia sets the intellectual fashion might bear closer scrutiny, but clearly most people (non-intellectuals) don’t give a rat’s ass about the contents* of any fashion they’re following! They believe-in-belief that they do, of course, but e.g. the people of the US entertainment industry, AFAIK, went from cautiously admiring the Soviet Union to considering it a miserable dump sometime around the early 80s, so they clearly aren’t faithful adepts of “progressivism”. Also, consider all the psychodrama after 9/11.
The belief that people behave certain ways because it signals something about their thought process, without actually thinking that way. I.e. politicians expressing outrage to signal, not because they are actually outraged. Hanson thinks this type of insincere signaling explains a lot of social behavior, much more than conventional wisdom would suggest.
Oh! We have this thing in TV Tropes! We call it a Straw Hypocrite! Indeed, it’s a hypothesis always worth assuming, but I don’t see how much use it can have except in hindsight, I mean how would one go about predicting someone else’s genuine emotional state? It’s much easier to predict the emotional state they will allow themselves to show, than it is to try to divine what’s going in in that brain of theirs! Not to mention, they probably aren’t even actually very clear on what they feel or what they think, at all. In extreme cases, they may have less predictive ability on the topic of their inner workings than an external observer! Not to mention the remarkably ironic occasions where people believe they are “faking” feelings that they actually have and are in denial of!
By the way, here in Russia it is mostly reactionary/nationalist/authoritarian types that express disapproval at any suggestion of regime change, either external or internal, in places like Cuba. It seemingly doesn’t matter much to them what kind of dictatorship it is, as long as it continues to exist and spite the 1st world nations. (Yes, I’m biased as hell against them.)
You mean to say Russia isn’t 1st world? When was there a 1st and 2nd world in the first place? I thought “third world” was a reference to a “third party”, not an attempt to actually order parts of the world in the shape of some list. For one thing, that would be rather insulting for whoever is the 2nd world, wouldn’t you agree?
That’s very easy to imagine as a concept… but are you really making a falsifiable claim that Western intelligentsia typically does all that right now? “Africans/Blacks/Gays/Arabs/Immigrants/Trotskyists/Opponents of evil regime X are such a virtuous and naturally blessed group that they can do no wrong, and everything that they believe as a group must therefore also be correct.”? I hardly recall seeing this kind of sentiment expressed by modern authors with any frequency*; if they have do have partisan feelings for some group (e.g. articles by straight liberal people in favor of gay marriage), they’re usually more circumspect—and more sane (as in, less doublethink & vulgar use of unspoken assumptions) - about it. Maybe you and me just read the same words differently.
I know you’re likely to prefer avoiding any mention of individual “respectable” authors in such context, but… any examples? Please? (I’d like some where such association with a distantly-viewed group is more or less explicit, of course, and I’m also curious to see if you feel that people renowned as cynics and skeptics fall prey to such sentiment.)
-* For “Opponents of evil regime X”, see the ongoing coverage of the “Arab Spring” (yes, the naming does display a little partisan bias); do the overwhelming majority of publications imply that 100% of the rebels commit no atrocities, have exclusively noble motivations and are of good moral character, share a lot of priors with Western liberals, etc? If so, I haven’t noticed it; in fact, the most partisan pro-uprising source so far has arguably been Al-Jazeera, not e.g. Huffington Post or Guardian.
They won’t make that statement explicitly, but they will accuse people who point out specific cases where said group isn’t virtuous or is doing something wrong of racism/sexism/homophobia/Islamophobia/victim bashing.
Yup, but that’s mostly unfalsifiable; people with different values can find different things unacceptably racist/*phobic/whatever. And they aren’t really hiding the fact that such accusations are just part of ideological warfare, or that they are partisan on those issues.
The point is that they’re using these charges to avoid rationally confronting their opponents’ arguments.
Uh-huh. But there’s a debate on truth-seeking vs. avoiding damage to society about this sort of thing even here on LW, as you know. Also, are there that many articles that only counter a listing of [favoured group]’s flaws with “That’s *-ist!”? At the very least and the worst level of argument commonly found, the writers try to make it look like the group’s virtues or just its “normality” to ordinary Western folks outweigh the criticism. I’m drawing on my impressions of The Guardian (which I read sporadically to see what British intelligentsia is up to), specifically of its CIF section.
Well, one historical example is the reaction to the Moynihan Report. It’s by no means the only example, but it’s the one where the people dismissing the report as racist and “victim bashing” probably did the most damage to society.
It seems very unfortunate to me that the concept of “Blaming the victim” has been founded upon such an ill-advised swipe at that report. Certainly such a phenomenon is painfully apparent all the time in daily life and politics, yet Moynihan’s intentions to me seem neither aggressive or very patronizing, nor even fuelled by conservative ideology, even if it could end up as ammunition for an unscurpulous ideologist. (he was in the Kennedy administration, so he might well have been a liberal technocrat)
Now this is pure conjencture and indeed fantasy on my part, but I guess that Ryan might’ve been motivated by the “Hostile media effect”, assuming that the report was a nefarious reactionary ploy and missing even the fact that Moynihan places nearly all the blame for the cultural dysfunctions of the black community squarely upon white oppression! (Hardly thought of as a right-wing thought pattern.)
I’m not suggesting that such an accusation of American culture and whites’ old behavior towards blacks must conversely be left-wing silliness; the logic of Moynihan’s explanation seems sound enough to me—it might be a cliche, but it’s probably true. (But then, I believe that Noam Chomsky is frequently spot-on and somewhat of an authority—what else is to be expected of me.)
Wow. That’s actually a stunningly interesting report. The conflict caused is also very interesting: one could also argue that the report itself, coming out at such a time, could have done more damage to society than its obfuscation did. The opponents of the Civil Rights movement would, I think, have weaponized it and used it to blame the Blacks entirely for their own problems, not to say they didn’t have partial responsibility, of course.
My thoughts exactly! Even today you see the more extreme elements of the Right scouring the net in what can be described as a search for ammunition, their bottom-line being already as entrenched as that of the Left extremists. And most of the radical Right do conspiciously seek to absolve traditional society of whatever stripe they prefer of absolutely any moral guilt. Back to the report in question, it seems well-founded in asserting that the black community had some faulty traditions and regressive ways of raising its new generations (as, from a modern perspective, might some other communities). However, it doesn’t outright deny the economic angle of the problem, nor, especially, does it paint a picture of fundamental hostility between the races, yet it is undoubtedly used to “support” such a picture even now by the real racists!
I wonder if Moynihan himself feared that key the message he apparently tried to send—“White people, in view of their historical fortune, have a duty to help struggling minorities out in an intelligent way, even if it might hurt some feelings in the short run when some structural elements of society need to be altered”—would be co-opted by some unsympathetic fucks to “prove” that n**rs are culturally inferior and should be subjugated by the “superior” races.
Why does right wing extremism scare you so much more than left wing extremism when the former is utterly despised as the definition of evil by most Westerners while the latter is only ever lukewarmly condemned?
Do extreme right wingers have some particular super power that I’m not aware of? The right wing are the guys who have been on a losing streak since Stalingrad and if you listen to Moldbug for a century before that too. I need some actual evidence that I should worry about them getting power anywhere in the West without being bombed into the stone age by the US five minutes later (bombing European right wing extremists, especially racist ones is the stuff of victory, moral superiority and war fantasies for them—check out American video games, adventure novels and action movie villains), than say of me personally being struck by lightning when I’m walking my dog on a rainy Saturday evening.
Reading some of your comments I can’t shake the feeling that you for some reason see their intellectual ammunition as so much more formidable than what is usually consumed by intellectuals that it despite the massive incentives against it threatens to one day quite suddenly break out and become popular among the smart fraction. Is this a correct reading?
Sort of yes! I’ve always been a little terrified of the power of naked, unashamed technocracy, of either despotic or Randian aspect. Even the more ruthless bits of Moldbug’s (rather comfortable and watered-down) technocratic fascism are, I fear, hardly a glimpse of what’s to come, if the “rationality” of geeks and engineers, finally free from either today’s humanist quasi-theocracy and the sober bounds of old-time coonservatism, gets free rein. Perhaps many here on LW, especially non-neurotypical people (who I tend to sympathize with a lot, but also be wary of if their condition includes any change in empathy) would be tempted by such a Ubermensch thing. Think of a hybrid of Speer, Eichmann and a weak UFAI and you’ll understand how this nightmare of mine goes.
(I’m actually integrating a sinister-yet-rationalist one world government based on these fears in my science fantasy novel—instead of a generic villainous empire I started out with—except that in my story it was formed by voices of moderation in high places after the Axis victory in WW2 and the ensuing cold war, not as the radical elitist movement that I can phantom it as in the real world.)
“Naked, unashamed technocracy” strikes me as much more similar to the position advocated by the left (ETA: especially the socialist left) then the right.
Oh, it’s advocated by the left, alright (damn you language), but e.g. Stalinism was much less that and much more feudalism than Westerners commonly assume; it was quite the underground struggle, and Stalin himself (even without supposing any conspiracy) fell to it, as everyone around was either genuinely too afraid of disrupting him the morning he had his heart attack/whatever it was, or consciously decided to abandon him.
My point is, if you scratch a Stalinist you’re likely to find a barbarian; those smart, brave and virtuous alt-right-wingers strike me as the only sort of people who could potentially succeed in truly implementing such a regime.
That is a very interesting concept! I’d love to read more about it, if you are writing in English and have any drafts you would like someone to read or will eventually publish, please make a post on LW!
SYNOPSIS:
The novel’s background is that Nazi and Japanese research into the nature of reality in an attempt to access “magic” or create “ontotechnological weapons” (credit for the word “Ontotechnology” goes to EY) pretty much broke the self-sealing “reality bubble” of Earth, placed there by an interdimensional supercivilization fighting its own civil war for the Universe itself. That supercivilization’s factions are perceived as “Angels” and “Demons”; they have made themselves into ontologically basic mental entities and the former are trying to impose absolute objective morality upon the Universe (which IS absolutely good and benign for any species that comes within its influence) while the latter are ruthless anarchists and opppose any rules at all, especially deontological ones.
As humans were predicted to have unusually strong reality-warping potential, Earth was sealed away in a local ceasefire that forbade both recruiting from it. After the “bubble” began to tear, the “demons”, acting without any hierarchy, just spontaneously invaded, making some people into their playthings, dragging others away for use as psychic slave-soldiers and helping start WW3 in the ongoing panic. As Japan and the Reich, blaming each other, were preparing to obliterate the remnants of civilization, powerful technocratic elements on both sides independently launched coups, came to an agreement and instated a new world order that was essentially a megacorporation (I thought of this before reading any Moldbug). It shaped humanity into a great and complex hierarchy, where daily strife and the fullfillment of urges by the population would accumulate the “psychic” reality-warping energies in huge resonators to drain every drop of them, including from people gifted enough to become “mages”.
The pooled energy was used to assist in brainwashing the masses, as a shield to keep rampaging demons away from the major arcologies, and to lash out at the barren and twisted Wastelands, where barbaric, Nietzchean sorcerer-cults now contended with each other and the infernal hordes. At the same time, there was a divine intervention as well. The “angels”, before being driven out of our meta-region of the Universe by the disaster, took volunteers with especially strong psychic potential and moral fibre with them to fight in the endless war, while for all the other humans whom they found worthy—about 5-10% of the population after a century of life under brutal totalitarian regimes—they created a small utopian realm with impenetrable defenses near the North Pole. Founded upon some weird rules, restrictions and gifts, it’s essentially going to be anime-like in my description. You know, heartbreakingly beautiful vistas, surreal technology like dragon AIs, ornithopters and crystal exoskeletons, an elaborate system of universities, guilds and knightly orders for everyone’s talents to flourish, everything is always romantic, etc.
However, it comes at a price, as the trope demands; the ruling council is allowed to use utilitarian logic for hard decisions, and what they’re going to do with it is my main plotline. The utopian culture sends agents Outside to help people and thwart the bad guys’ attempts to penetrate their barrier or otherwise harm them, like Banks’ Contact and Special Circumstances. And they support a network of resistance cells in the utilitarian megacorp’s arcologies. Think like Al-Quaeda, but somewhat sympathetic and with Gnostic mysticism. The protagonist is a young soldier/technician in the Resistance, who starts out depressed, demotivated and Shinji-like (write what you know!); he’s hopelessly in love with a female agent of the Utopia that’s working with his cell on something top-secret. In the beginning, the cell is wiped out by a State Security raid and the agent is taken prisoner, but not before she implants the mortally injured protagonist with her hyper-advanced drone, making him into a superpowered zombie cyborg. Stumbling away from the wreckage, he meets up with a hacker from the arcology—who’s part of a subculture stealing psychic energy and addicted to it—and that hacker’s tsundere sister, a promising social engineer/spin doctor/brainwasher who’s devoted to the megacorp at first but slowly agrees to become a double agent. Together they unveil a conspiracy involving a weird urban legend, said to be a memetic virus called the “Invisible Dawn”—which is the title of the novel.
Whew.
Unfortunately for you, I’m writing in Russian, as attempting something novel-length in English would’ve at this point only become a drain of my mental energy; I’ll need another decade of practice before I can use it as easily as Russian.
Having beliefs that correspond to reality?
You would also describe yourself as having beliefs that correspond to reality, but neither you nor me nor the general public would claim that you’re some kind of extremist on account, say, of your posts here; you look like a typical secularist conservative/libertarian type to me. While we would clearly disagree about many of each other’s values or instrumental decisions, we definitely wouldn’t believe that the other is a horrible enemy of civilization.
OK, I’ll try to give a current example, with the caveat that I’m giving it purely for illustrative purposes, not to start unwelcome politically charged discussions.
Observe the ongoing controversy over the recent shooting in Florida. Now, I’m not going to speculate on the details of the case itself at all—for the sake of the argument, you can assume any version of the events you wish, and what I’ll say will still apply.
Whatever may have actually occurred in this case, there is no doubt that: (1) conclusive evidence of what really happened is still lacking, and even less evidence was available when the controversy erupted some weeks ago, and yet (2) numerous respectable voices of the mainstream opinion rushed to express passionate condemnation of the shooter that went far beyond anything that could be reasonably inferred from the evidence, often going even beyond mere bias and spin into outright lies and fabrication. Even if, hypothetically, some evidence eventually emerges showing that their general conclusion was right, and the shooter really did something as nasty as they believe, it is simply undeniable that they have gone far beyond anything that might be justified given the presently available knowledge. (And it’s easy to find plenty of examples of vulgarity, silliness, malignancy, and dishonesty in their reactions.)
Now, how to explain these reactions? Clearly, some people’s reactions are easily explained with just plain “nationalism” in Orwell’s sense, since they share their own identity with the person who got killed. But what about those who have no such connection, which certainly includes the majority of the respectable opinion that got inflamed with such passionate intensity? It seems to me like a clear-cut case of “transferred nationalism” in Orwell’s sense.
(Again, I really hate to introduce any discussions of controversial daily politics on LW. I’m giving an example like this one only because I was specifically asked to do so, and I don’t intend to follow up with any specific discussion of the case. I’m interested in it only as a case study for examining the mechanisms of public opinion demonstrated in it.)
Okay, thanks. However, based on what I know of the US, nearly any murder or other serious incident caught in the news where the races of the victim and the accused were different would practically always provoke a hysterical reaction wracked with all the usual American neuroses. There’s nothing exceptionally bad about this case’s handling that hasn’t been true for a very long while IMO.
(Well, except for pre-Civil War times, when things might have been a little less convoulted but positively flaunted the heuristics we now find disgusting; the mainstream wouldn’t stop for a moment before assigning guilt based on how non-Anglo-Saxon* a participant was, and the radical anti-racists would jump to the opposite conclusion, often in a patronizing “Uncle Tom” way. Can’t point to a specific case from which I got this picture, and you might be justified in calling it oversimplified, but I’m pretty sure that it’s not just a modern political caricature of the bad old times.)
-* Were the Southern whites also considered Anglo-Saxon in the broad sense? If no, what word did they use to separate themselves and e.g. the Irish/Eastern European immigrants or other “inferior” whites?
There is plenty of counter evidence to this.
Even some stuff that would seem to have all the building blocks for media exposure and revenue generation, like say the recent case of a home invasion where a young man sexually assaults and kills a 85 year old woman and beats her husband to the point of him being hospitalized.
Huh? So… what do you think makes the difference between this case and the ones that failed to detonate? If your answer looks too mind-killing to you, please PM me.
Man bites dog partially explains it.
Well, I am giving it as an example of standard and long-standing attitudes of the sort that Orwell described as “transferred nationalism,” not some novel phenomenon.
Well, how about, say, Germany or Canada? The racial issues are obviously less charged here, and not due to their especial monoethnicity - and it appears to me from outside view that while people there might be unimaginably biased on other issues, they are at least more polite, less prone to contagnious hysteria and just have a higher sanity waterline as communities.
I think Steve Sailer does a good job of analysing this.
Sorry, but I think this is too partisan and arational (has Sailer even tried to imagine what his “enemies” think and believe before professing that they are basically Stalin and O’Brien?) to quote on LW. You could’ve just linked to the post.
Good point, fixed the post.
The fact that Zimmerman stinks so badly at his self-appointed job of “neighborhood watch captain,” it led him to kill an innocent man. (If you think Martin was actually committing a crime, I can probably give you 2-to-1 odds.) In the absence of social condemnation, Zimmerman might continue carrying a gun in pursuit of his hobby. The media has put itself in charge of condemnation. Since some of their leaders seem very stupid, we would expect them to make mistakes. (In fact, you could argue they stink at this job and shouldn’t be in charge of condemnation at all.)
The fact that Florida law might allow two men to “stand their ground” and escalate the use of force until someone dies also seems relevant. If it actually happened then Florida voters should know. But I don’t think this played more than a small role in the media’s actions, because they seem too stupid on the whole to make decisions based on policy concerns.
You are aware that according to the best theory based on public available evidence Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin until the latter was beating his head on the pavement? Also in that kind of situation “stand your ground” laws aren’t all that relevant since there is no way to retreat.
Edit: Also, your “media incompetence” theory doesn’t explain why all the mistakes went in the same direction.
By saying “incompetence” you make it sound like I think the media wants to create accurate beliefs about reality, but fails due to other factors. This seems as silly as thinking the human brain evolved to get the right answer, in general, but has all these extraneous biases mucking it up. I thought I explained how I see the media’s motives.
I don’t understand what you mean. Are you assuming that beating someone’s head on the pavement would count as a crime? Because like I said, Trayvon Martin had a perfect right under Florida law to stand his ground if the strange man with the gun genuinely seemed threatening.
Why not? All their mistakes seemed to go in one direction back when Chris T.N.O. Matthews was saying Al Gore “would lick the bathroom floor” to be President. But I explain that as the result of personal dislike combined with a tribal sense of offense at Bill Clinton’s actions, not a bias against Democrats. Why on Earth would you not expect idiots like that to fly off the handle at the death of an innocent child?
I’d like to mention that depending on the situation and the regime in question people might attach their nationalism to the regime itself (denying its evils) rather than to its opponents.
Heh, of course. I see it all the time in Russian right-of-center publications. But wasn’t the blame here being placed upon stereotypical liberal-minded people? I don’t see any liberals gushing about how unfairly e.g. Fidel Castro is being treated, or how the Viet Cong were all righteous and noble freedom fighters who only wanted peace and treated enemies with respect (of course, most people—including me—are more sympathetic to them than the American soldiers when talking about the Vietnam war, but that’s to be expected given the vast objective differences in the combatants’ situations).
Well they certainly exist, expecially in Hollywood.
Well, those people certainly don’t make their living by writing or abstract thinking. I meant liberal/moderate leftist journalists, professional writers, political experts, etc. Celebrities known to be conservative also often say misguided ideological things, except that there’s less of them in America because conservatives there typically stay away from the entertainment industry (both due to natural predisposition and active self-segregation, I’d guess).*
(In other countries the political divide looks less sharp in general, and proeminent people tend to express their political views more subtly too.)
- I think it was pretty silly of Moldbug to spin a theory of how everybody-who’s-anybody is carrying the “progressivism” meme in America because it’s supposedly better adapted; it’s clear that there’s simple Hanson-style signaling at work in Hollywood and elsewhere; Moldbug’s assertion that academia sets the intellectual fashion might bear closer scrutiny, but clearly most people (non-intellectuals) don’t give a rat’s ass about the contents* of any fashion they’re following! They believe-in-belief that they do, of course, but e.g. the people of the US entertainment industry, AFAIK, went from cautiously admiring the Soviet Union to considering it a miserable dump sometime around the early 80s, so they clearly aren’t faithful adepts of “progressivism”. Also, consider all the psychodrama after 9/11.
Forgive my ignorance, but what’s that?
The belief that people behave certain ways because it signals something about their thought process, without actually thinking that way. I.e. politicians expressing outrage to signal, not because they are actually outraged. Hanson thinks this type of insincere signaling explains a lot of social behavior, much more than conventional wisdom would suggest.
Oh! We have this thing in TV Tropes! We call it a Straw Hypocrite! Indeed, it’s a hypothesis always worth assuming, but I don’t see how much use it can have except in hindsight, I mean how would one go about predicting someone else’s genuine emotional state? It’s much easier to predict the emotional state they will allow themselves to show, than it is to try to divine what’s going in in that brain of theirs! Not to mention, they probably aren’t even actually very clear on what they feel or what they think, at all. In extreme cases, they may have less predictive ability on the topic of their inner workings than an external observer! Not to mention the remarkably ironic occasions where people believe they are “faking” feelings that they actually have and are in denial of!
Pinkie Pie mode, eh?
Pinkie Pie mode is my default mode, I just try to subdue it when I’m on the Internet, but sometimes I get lazy...
By the way, here in Russia it is mostly reactionary/nationalist/authoritarian types that express disapproval at any suggestion of regime change, either external or internal, in places like Cuba. It seemingly doesn’t matter much to them what kind of dictatorship it is, as long as it continues to exist and spite the 1st world nations. (Yes, I’m biased as hell against them.)
That doesn’t surprise me in the least.
You mean to say Russia isn’t 1st world? When was there a 1st and 2nd world in the first place? I thought “third world” was a reference to a “third party”, not an attempt to actually order parts of the world in the shape of some list. For one thing, that would be rather insulting for whoever is the 2nd world, wouldn’t you agree?
1st World—Capitalists
2d World—Communists
3rd World—The places where puppet games were played (particularly former colonies).