I think that one of your main problems may be that you’re thinking of conversation as something it isn’t. There is no procedure for success.
You can’t create a procedure that maps out every branch in a conversation tree, no. But I think you are underestimating the ritualization and standardization of social activity. There really are patterns in how people do things. There are considerable norms, rules, and constraints. People who are intuitively social (whether they became that way earlier or later in life) may have trouble articulating these patterns.
Within these constraints, there are infinite ways to behave, and you can be as spontaneous as you want. Intuitively social people experience social interaction to be natural and spontaneous because their intuitions keep them within those constraints.
Conversation is “procedureless” in the same sense that musical improvisation is “procedureless.” You can’t map out the rules for improvisation in advance. But there are some chords that work well (or badly) after others that you can know in advance. You can know whether you are in a major or minor key, and if you have the concept of major/minor mode and key, then it will funnel your spontaneity in a direction that will create a harmonious result.
In contrast, a socially unskilled person is like someone improvising with concepts such as “mode” and “key.” Their results are practically guaranteed to violate the constraints of what we consider to be good music. This of what happens when an untrained person plinks away at a piano.
While both conversation and musical improvisation are procedureless, there are procedures for learning those things. Musicians practice scales and etudes. Applying the same kind of process to learning social interaction is looked on as strange, because of the false expectation that people should be able to learn it naturally (even if the reason they haven’t is because they were locked out of social interaction for years due to bullying and exclusion that was no fault of their own).
I don’t think there is really such a thing as introverted and extroverted people at all. People are encouraged to think of these things as part of their “essential character” (TM) - or even their biology. And in some medical cases, this is obviously true (such as in autism).
Actually, introversation is a component of temperament that does seem to have a biological basis.
But for most people, it’s not a lack of ability, it’s a lack of will.
I agree that for most people with low social skills probably aren’t biologically determined to be quite so bad at socializing. Even though people have different levels of potential due to biology, most people probably don’t come anywhere near meeting their potential. But the problem isn’t really their will; it’s their social development and the associations that they have developed with social interaction.
Someone’s present-day social skills are due to an interaction of biological and environmental factors. Temperament on its own generally doesn’t determine social skills; instead, their temperament influences social experiences, which determine what level of social skills are learned. In the case of people with low social skills and different temperaments (e.g. introversion), these people generally got that way because their temperament made them “get off on the wrong foot” with their peers socially, often resulting in bullying, exclusion, or abuse. In another peer environment, even an introverted individual could develop social skills just fine.
The idea of an extroverted social animal who feels no fear is a false ideal, I think.
Actually, there are pretty large individual differences in susceptibility to anxiety. People with lower “anxiety threshold” (i.e. it takes less to make them anxious) really do have things harder. I managed to conquer anxiety at the level of social phobia, but to do I had to recognize certain challenges (and advantages) that my temperament gave me, and learned to cope with them.
To be pithy: “If at first you don’t succeed, try and try again.”
This works for some people once they have certain prerequisites for learning from their attempts at socializing. The trick is to get them to those prerequisites.
Certainly there are patterns in social interaction.
However, I think that if you go into social interaction aware of these patterns and meaning to act on them, then this very awareness will in fact ruin your social interaction, because one of the rules of genuine social interaction is that it’s free flowing and natural-feeling. If you treat it like a formula, you’ll break it.
However, I think that in this case it isn’t needed. It seems clear that following a conversation by rules and algorithms will be unable to replicate genuine conversation. Very little of a conversation is about what is actually said. You have to read body language, you have to read into what isn’t said, you have to use intuition because you read these things unconsciously, not consciously.
I can’t be bothered to find it at the moment—or in the foreseeable future—because this topic just doesn’t mean hours of time to me, but I do recall studies in which people’s ability to register body language consciously was compared to our ability to read it by intuition, sub-consciously. The results were something like this: the conscious mind could only spot 2 or 3 body language signs, whereas the unconscious mind was able to pick up on up to 15.
You seem to be denying the possibility of teaching anyone to be better at conversation by explaining various norms, rules and constraints to them and getting them to practice while consciously attending to this information, at least initially.
I don’t think anyone would deny that the ultimate aim of any such instruction would be for the student to internalize the rules to an extent that they were applied largely unconsciously and automatically—most skills make this progression as they are developed. However I’ve seen plenty of people claim that instruction of this kind can be effective at improving conversational skills for people who are not able to ‘just do it’ as you seem to advise. Convincing evidence to the contrary would help save people from fruitless expenditure of time, money and effort trying to develop conversational skills if you were able to provide it.
I think the idea of learning conversational social norms and so forth by practice/instruction is a very different issue to consciously using a decision procedure to dictate your conversation.
The instruction you describe is pretty much a description of what most people experience growing up, through a combination of what their parents teach them and experience/trial and error.
This is not the same thing as standing next to someone and going through a mental flow chart, or list of “dos and don’ts” every time it’s your turn to say something.
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
I think the idea of learning conversational social norms and so forth by practice/instruction is a very different issue to consciously using a decision procedure to dictate your conversation.
I’m not sure of this distinction. Why can’t a conscious decision procedure be an element of instruction?
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
Conscious decision procedures are a time-honored teaching tool in domains with similar features to social skills: music, sports, and dance. Look at musical or athletic exercises, and dance routines. Why does applying the same heuristics to learning social skills attract disdain?
I think we agree that beginners who are making most of their choices at a conscious level will often produce clunky results. The cause that I am making is that a lot of cognitive systemizing about social interaction can be a valid and productive learning tool to many people. Clunky results can be better than no results, and pave the way to learning how to socialize without so much conscious processing.
In many domains (e.g. music and dance), there is a time-tested process of consciously breaking down knowledge into component pieces, and teaching them to the student at a conscious level. Over time, the student stops needing to consciously attend to that knowledge, and it becomes encoded in intuitions and muscle-memory. See the four stages of competence:
The instruction you describe is pretty much a description of what most people experience growing up, through a combination of what their parents teach them and experience/trial and error.
HughRistik was discussing the possibility of helping people to develop these sorts of skills who for whatever reason failed to acquire them when growing up. Many people claim that explicit instruction can be a valuable tool in developing such skills later in life. If true this is a lot more useful to people suffering from this problem than your ‘advice’.
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
To riff on HughRistik’s music analogy, is a guitar player ‘trying to fake it’ by practicing scales and chords and learning musical theory before they have mastered improvisation?
You’re missing my point somewhat. I’m not saying you can’t get better at conversation. Nor am I saying that there aren’t tips/instruction you can give. On this very page you see me do so here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2co/how_to_always_have_interesting_conversations/2a1j?c=1 Further, I just said above that this is exactly how people normally develop their conversational abilities.
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation. In fact, using them to teach someone conversation would be counter-productive, because it would give them a false idea of what conversation is like. It represents conversation as mechanical, and if a person approaches a conversation as if it were mechanical then they will not succeed in having a genuine conversation.
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation.
And matt and I are asking, what makes you so sure of this? Have you tried this approach? Have you watched other people try it?
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation.
In the short term, no. Matt and I agree with you here. But remember, many socially-unskilled people already can’t produce natural sounding conversation. They are wracked with indecision and “analysis paralysis” because they have no way to select a way to behave merely through their intuitions. People experiencing anxiety-provoking analysis paralysis can’t produce natural sounding conversation. Giving them something to say and a set of algorithms or rules can cut down on the amount of analysis they are normally doing, and allow them to make progress.
In fact, using them to teach someone conversation would be counter-productive, because it would give them a false idea of what conversation is like. It represents conversation as mechanical, and if a person approaches a conversation as if it were mechanical then they will not succeed in having a genuine conversation.
Again, I agree, but these problems are actually better than what a lot of socially unskilled people are currently facing. In conversations, they immediately put their feet in their mouths, or they get analysis paralysis and fade into the background. Either way, they don’t learn anything, because they are either getting negative feedback, or no feedback at all.
For many people, being able to have mechanical conversations is actually a better starting point for learning natural conversation, than the alternatives of “instant foot-in-mouth” or “analysis paralysis.” Being able to get into conversations and have exchanges with people, even at a clunky level, gives you valuable social experience to fuel a more intuitive and spontaneous set of social skills.
Once you get your foot into the door of social interaction, and get responses and feedback from people, then you can start learning on an implicit unconscious level via operant conditioning. Decision procedures and algorithms can be excellent ways to get people to the place where real learning can begin.
Strangely, it actually works pretty well to algorithmically learn a clunky level of social skills to get your foot in the door, gain implicit social knowledge from operant conditioning, and then forget or diminish your reliance on algorithms (there are even algorithms to help you get rid of your old algorithms). I’ve gone through this process and watched a bunch of people do the same. It really does work, and creates results that are pretty indistinguishable from normally socialized people.
It’s seems our main area of disagreement is over whether certain teaching procedures and certain ways of practicing / developing conversational skills can be effective, namely those that frame the issue in more of a rules based / procedural style. I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can simply learn these rules or procedures and you’re done—apply them and be an instant master conversationalist. The claim is merely that these can be an effective means for people who have failed to develop these skills by the ‘normal’ means to become more competent conversationalists.
I don’t have much direct experience in this area and it appears you don’t either so perhaps we should let the discussion rest at this point. I’m still more inclined to believe the reports of people who claim that they have observed these techniques working successfully than the dismissals from people who think they can’t possibly work but settling the issue would require further evidence that I don’t think either of us can provide.
You can’t create a procedure that maps out every branch in a conversation tree, no. But I think you are underestimating the ritualization and standardization of social activity. There really are patterns in how people do things. There are considerable norms, rules, and constraints. People who are intuitively social (whether they became that way earlier or later in life) may have trouble articulating these patterns.
Within these constraints, there are infinite ways to behave, and you can be as spontaneous as you want. Intuitively social people experience social interaction to be natural and spontaneous because their intuitions keep them within those constraints.
Conversation is “procedureless” in the same sense that musical improvisation is “procedureless.” You can’t map out the rules for improvisation in advance. But there are some chords that work well (or badly) after others that you can know in advance. You can know whether you are in a major or minor key, and if you have the concept of major/minor mode and key, then it will funnel your spontaneity in a direction that will create a harmonious result.
In contrast, a socially unskilled person is like someone improvising with concepts such as “mode” and “key.” Their results are practically guaranteed to violate the constraints of what we consider to be good music. This of what happens when an untrained person plinks away at a piano.
While both conversation and musical improvisation are procedureless, there are procedures for learning those things. Musicians practice scales and etudes. Applying the same kind of process to learning social interaction is looked on as strange, because of the false expectation that people should be able to learn it naturally (even if the reason they haven’t is because they were locked out of social interaction for years due to bullying and exclusion that was no fault of their own).
Actually, introversation is a component of temperament that does seem to have a biological basis.
I agree that for most people with low social skills probably aren’t biologically determined to be quite so bad at socializing. Even though people have different levels of potential due to biology, most people probably don’t come anywhere near meeting their potential. But the problem isn’t really their will; it’s their social development and the associations that they have developed with social interaction.
Someone’s present-day social skills are due to an interaction of biological and environmental factors. Temperament on its own generally doesn’t determine social skills; instead, their temperament influences social experiences, which determine what level of social skills are learned. In the case of people with low social skills and different temperaments (e.g. introversion), these people generally got that way because their temperament made them “get off on the wrong foot” with their peers socially, often resulting in bullying, exclusion, or abuse. In another peer environment, even an introverted individual could develop social skills just fine.
Actually, there are pretty large individual differences in susceptibility to anxiety. People with lower “anxiety threshold” (i.e. it takes less to make them anxious) really do have things harder. I managed to conquer anxiety at the level of social phobia, but to do I had to recognize certain challenges (and advantages) that my temperament gave me, and learned to cope with them.
This works for some people once they have certain prerequisites for learning from their attempts at socializing. The trick is to get them to those prerequisites.
Certainly there are patterns in social interaction.
However, I think that if you go into social interaction aware of these patterns and meaning to act on them, then this very awareness will in fact ruin your social interaction, because one of the rules of genuine social interaction is that it’s free flowing and natural-feeling. If you treat it like a formula, you’ll break it.
What evidence do you have for your theory?
Which bit of it?
The second paragraph.
I assume you mean of my reply to HughRistik.
No statistical data, if that’s what you want.
However, I think that in this case it isn’t needed. It seems clear that following a conversation by rules and algorithms will be unable to replicate genuine conversation. Very little of a conversation is about what is actually said. You have to read body language, you have to read into what isn’t said, you have to use intuition because you read these things unconsciously, not consciously.
I can’t be bothered to find it at the moment—or in the foreseeable future—because this topic just doesn’t mean hours of time to me, but I do recall studies in which people’s ability to register body language consciously was compared to our ability to read it by intuition, sub-consciously. The results were something like this: the conscious mind could only spot 2 or 3 body language signs, whereas the unconscious mind was able to pick up on up to 15.
You seem to be denying the possibility of teaching anyone to be better at conversation by explaining various norms, rules and constraints to them and getting them to practice while consciously attending to this information, at least initially.
I don’t think anyone would deny that the ultimate aim of any such instruction would be for the student to internalize the rules to an extent that they were applied largely unconsciously and automatically—most skills make this progression as they are developed. However I’ve seen plenty of people claim that instruction of this kind can be effective at improving conversational skills for people who are not able to ‘just do it’ as you seem to advise. Convincing evidence to the contrary would help save people from fruitless expenditure of time, money and effort trying to develop conversational skills if you were able to provide it.
I think the idea of learning conversational social norms and so forth by practice/instruction is a very different issue to consciously using a decision procedure to dictate your conversation.
The instruction you describe is pretty much a description of what most people experience growing up, through a combination of what their parents teach them and experience/trial and error.
This is not the same thing as standing next to someone and going through a mental flow chart, or list of “dos and don’ts” every time it’s your turn to say something.
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
I’m not sure of this distinction. Why can’t a conscious decision procedure be an element of instruction?
Conscious decision procedures are a time-honored teaching tool in domains with similar features to social skills: music, sports, and dance. Look at musical or athletic exercises, and dance routines. Why does applying the same heuristics to learning social skills attract disdain?
I think we agree that beginners who are making most of their choices at a conscious level will often produce clunky results. The cause that I am making is that a lot of cognitive systemizing about social interaction can be a valid and productive learning tool to many people. Clunky results can be better than no results, and pave the way to learning how to socialize without so much conscious processing.
In many domains (e.g. music and dance), there is a time-tested process of consciously breaking down knowledge into component pieces, and teaching them to the student at a conscious level. Over time, the student stops needing to consciously attend to that knowledge, and it becomes encoded in intuitions and muscle-memory. See the four stages of competence:
unconscious incompetence
conscious incompetence
conscious competence
unconscious competence
HughRistik was discussing the possibility of helping people to develop these sorts of skills who for whatever reason failed to acquire them when growing up. Many people claim that explicit instruction can be a valuable tool in developing such skills later in life. If true this is a lot more useful to people suffering from this problem than your ‘advice’.
To riff on HughRistik’s music analogy, is a guitar player ‘trying to fake it’ by practicing scales and chords and learning musical theory before they have mastered improvisation?
You’re missing my point somewhat. I’m not saying you can’t get better at conversation. Nor am I saying that there aren’t tips/instruction you can give. On this very page you see me do so here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2co/how_to_always_have_interesting_conversations/2a1j?c=1 Further, I just said above that this is exactly how people normally develop their conversational abilities.
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation. In fact, using them to teach someone conversation would be counter-productive, because it would give them a false idea of what conversation is like. It represents conversation as mechanical, and if a person approaches a conversation as if it were mechanical then they will not succeed in having a genuine conversation.
And matt and I are asking, what makes you so sure of this? Have you tried this approach? Have you watched other people try it?
In the short term, no. Matt and I agree with you here. But remember, many socially-unskilled people already can’t produce natural sounding conversation. They are wracked with indecision and “analysis paralysis” because they have no way to select a way to behave merely through their intuitions. People experiencing anxiety-provoking analysis paralysis can’t produce natural sounding conversation. Giving them something to say and a set of algorithms or rules can cut down on the amount of analysis they are normally doing, and allow them to make progress.
Again, I agree, but these problems are actually better than what a lot of socially unskilled people are currently facing. In conversations, they immediately put their feet in their mouths, or they get analysis paralysis and fade into the background. Either way, they don’t learn anything, because they are either getting negative feedback, or no feedback at all.
For many people, being able to have mechanical conversations is actually a better starting point for learning natural conversation, than the alternatives of “instant foot-in-mouth” or “analysis paralysis.” Being able to get into conversations and have exchanges with people, even at a clunky level, gives you valuable social experience to fuel a more intuitive and spontaneous set of social skills.
Once you get your foot into the door of social interaction, and get responses and feedback from people, then you can start learning on an implicit unconscious level via operant conditioning. Decision procedures and algorithms can be excellent ways to get people to the place where real learning can begin.
Strangely, it actually works pretty well to algorithmically learn a clunky level of social skills to get your foot in the door, gain implicit social knowledge from operant conditioning, and then forget or diminish your reliance on algorithms (there are even algorithms to help you get rid of your old algorithms). I’ve gone through this process and watched a bunch of people do the same. It really does work, and creates results that are pretty indistinguishable from normally socialized people.
It’s seems our main area of disagreement is over whether certain teaching procedures and certain ways of practicing / developing conversational skills can be effective, namely those that frame the issue in more of a rules based / procedural style. I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can simply learn these rules or procedures and you’re done—apply them and be an instant master conversationalist. The claim is merely that these can be an effective means for people who have failed to develop these skills by the ‘normal’ means to become more competent conversationalists.
I don’t have much direct experience in this area and it appears you don’t either so perhaps we should let the discussion rest at this point. I’m still more inclined to believe the reports of people who claim that they have observed these techniques working successfully than the dismissals from people who think they can’t possibly work but settling the issue would require further evidence that I don’t think either of us can provide.