I think the idea of learning conversational social norms and so forth by practice/instruction is a very different issue to consciously using a decision procedure to dictate your conversation.
The instruction you describe is pretty much a description of what most people experience growing up, through a combination of what their parents teach them and experience/trial and error.
This is not the same thing as standing next to someone and going through a mental flow chart, or list of “dos and don’ts” every time it’s your turn to say something.
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
I think the idea of learning conversational social norms and so forth by practice/instruction is a very different issue to consciously using a decision procedure to dictate your conversation.
I’m not sure of this distinction. Why can’t a conscious decision procedure be an element of instruction?
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
Conscious decision procedures are a time-honored teaching tool in domains with similar features to social skills: music, sports, and dance. Look at musical or athletic exercises, and dance routines. Why does applying the same heuristics to learning social skills attract disdain?
I think we agree that beginners who are making most of their choices at a conscious level will often produce clunky results. The cause that I am making is that a lot of cognitive systemizing about social interaction can be a valid and productive learning tool to many people. Clunky results can be better than no results, and pave the way to learning how to socialize without so much conscious processing.
In many domains (e.g. music and dance), there is a time-tested process of consciously breaking down knowledge into component pieces, and teaching them to the student at a conscious level. Over time, the student stops needing to consciously attend to that knowledge, and it becomes encoded in intuitions and muscle-memory. See the four stages of competence:
The instruction you describe is pretty much a description of what most people experience growing up, through a combination of what their parents teach them and experience/trial and error.
HughRistik was discussing the possibility of helping people to develop these sorts of skills who for whatever reason failed to acquire them when growing up. Many people claim that explicit instruction can be a valuable tool in developing such skills later in life. If true this is a lot more useful to people suffering from this problem than your ‘advice’.
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
To riff on HughRistik’s music analogy, is a guitar player ‘trying to fake it’ by practicing scales and chords and learning musical theory before they have mastered improvisation?
You’re missing my point somewhat. I’m not saying you can’t get better at conversation. Nor am I saying that there aren’t tips/instruction you can give. On this very page you see me do so here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2co/how_to_always_have_interesting_conversations/2a1j?c=1 Further, I just said above that this is exactly how people normally develop their conversational abilities.
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation. In fact, using them to teach someone conversation would be counter-productive, because it would give them a false idea of what conversation is like. It represents conversation as mechanical, and if a person approaches a conversation as if it were mechanical then they will not succeed in having a genuine conversation.
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation.
And matt and I are asking, what makes you so sure of this? Have you tried this approach? Have you watched other people try it?
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation.
In the short term, no. Matt and I agree with you here. But remember, many socially-unskilled people already can’t produce natural sounding conversation. They are wracked with indecision and “analysis paralysis” because they have no way to select a way to behave merely through their intuitions. People experiencing anxiety-provoking analysis paralysis can’t produce natural sounding conversation. Giving them something to say and a set of algorithms or rules can cut down on the amount of analysis they are normally doing, and allow them to make progress.
In fact, using them to teach someone conversation would be counter-productive, because it would give them a false idea of what conversation is like. It represents conversation as mechanical, and if a person approaches a conversation as if it were mechanical then they will not succeed in having a genuine conversation.
Again, I agree, but these problems are actually better than what a lot of socially unskilled people are currently facing. In conversations, they immediately put their feet in their mouths, or they get analysis paralysis and fade into the background. Either way, they don’t learn anything, because they are either getting negative feedback, or no feedback at all.
For many people, being able to have mechanical conversations is actually a better starting point for learning natural conversation, than the alternatives of “instant foot-in-mouth” or “analysis paralysis.” Being able to get into conversations and have exchanges with people, even at a clunky level, gives you valuable social experience to fuel a more intuitive and spontaneous set of social skills.
Once you get your foot into the door of social interaction, and get responses and feedback from people, then you can start learning on an implicit unconscious level via operant conditioning. Decision procedures and algorithms can be excellent ways to get people to the place where real learning can begin.
Strangely, it actually works pretty well to algorithmically learn a clunky level of social skills to get your foot in the door, gain implicit social knowledge from operant conditioning, and then forget or diminish your reliance on algorithms (there are even algorithms to help you get rid of your old algorithms). I’ve gone through this process and watched a bunch of people do the same. It really does work, and creates results that are pretty indistinguishable from normally socialized people.
It’s seems our main area of disagreement is over whether certain teaching procedures and certain ways of practicing / developing conversational skills can be effective, namely those that frame the issue in more of a rules based / procedural style. I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can simply learn these rules or procedures and you’re done—apply them and be an instant master conversationalist. The claim is merely that these can be an effective means for people who have failed to develop these skills by the ‘normal’ means to become more competent conversationalists.
I don’t have much direct experience in this area and it appears you don’t either so perhaps we should let the discussion rest at this point. I’m still more inclined to believe the reports of people who claim that they have observed these techniques working successfully than the dismissals from people who think they can’t possibly work but settling the issue would require further evidence that I don’t think either of us can provide.
I think the idea of learning conversational social norms and so forth by practice/instruction is a very different issue to consciously using a decision procedure to dictate your conversation.
The instruction you describe is pretty much a description of what most people experience growing up, through a combination of what their parents teach them and experience/trial and error.
This is not the same thing as standing next to someone and going through a mental flow chart, or list of “dos and don’ts” every time it’s your turn to say something.
The former is genuinely learning conversation, the latter is trying to fake it.
I’m not sure of this distinction. Why can’t a conscious decision procedure be an element of instruction?
Conscious decision procedures are a time-honored teaching tool in domains with similar features to social skills: music, sports, and dance. Look at musical or athletic exercises, and dance routines. Why does applying the same heuristics to learning social skills attract disdain?
I think we agree that beginners who are making most of their choices at a conscious level will often produce clunky results. The cause that I am making is that a lot of cognitive systemizing about social interaction can be a valid and productive learning tool to many people. Clunky results can be better than no results, and pave the way to learning how to socialize without so much conscious processing.
In many domains (e.g. music and dance), there is a time-tested process of consciously breaking down knowledge into component pieces, and teaching them to the student at a conscious level. Over time, the student stops needing to consciously attend to that knowledge, and it becomes encoded in intuitions and muscle-memory. See the four stages of competence:
unconscious incompetence
conscious incompetence
conscious competence
unconscious competence
HughRistik was discussing the possibility of helping people to develop these sorts of skills who for whatever reason failed to acquire them when growing up. Many people claim that explicit instruction can be a valuable tool in developing such skills later in life. If true this is a lot more useful to people suffering from this problem than your ‘advice’.
To riff on HughRistik’s music analogy, is a guitar player ‘trying to fake it’ by practicing scales and chords and learning musical theory before they have mastered improvisation?
You’re missing my point somewhat. I’m not saying you can’t get better at conversation. Nor am I saying that there aren’t tips/instruction you can give. On this very page you see me do so here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2co/how_to_always_have_interesting_conversations/2a1j?c=1 Further, I just said above that this is exactly how people normally develop their conversational abilities.
My point is simply that decision procedures/algorithms are not the way to go, because they will not produce natural sounding conversation. In fact, using them to teach someone conversation would be counter-productive, because it would give them a false idea of what conversation is like. It represents conversation as mechanical, and if a person approaches a conversation as if it were mechanical then they will not succeed in having a genuine conversation.
And matt and I are asking, what makes you so sure of this? Have you tried this approach? Have you watched other people try it?
In the short term, no. Matt and I agree with you here. But remember, many socially-unskilled people already can’t produce natural sounding conversation. They are wracked with indecision and “analysis paralysis” because they have no way to select a way to behave merely through their intuitions. People experiencing anxiety-provoking analysis paralysis can’t produce natural sounding conversation. Giving them something to say and a set of algorithms or rules can cut down on the amount of analysis they are normally doing, and allow them to make progress.
Again, I agree, but these problems are actually better than what a lot of socially unskilled people are currently facing. In conversations, they immediately put their feet in their mouths, or they get analysis paralysis and fade into the background. Either way, they don’t learn anything, because they are either getting negative feedback, or no feedback at all.
For many people, being able to have mechanical conversations is actually a better starting point for learning natural conversation, than the alternatives of “instant foot-in-mouth” or “analysis paralysis.” Being able to get into conversations and have exchanges with people, even at a clunky level, gives you valuable social experience to fuel a more intuitive and spontaneous set of social skills.
Once you get your foot into the door of social interaction, and get responses and feedback from people, then you can start learning on an implicit unconscious level via operant conditioning. Decision procedures and algorithms can be excellent ways to get people to the place where real learning can begin.
Strangely, it actually works pretty well to algorithmically learn a clunky level of social skills to get your foot in the door, gain implicit social knowledge from operant conditioning, and then forget or diminish your reliance on algorithms (there are even algorithms to help you get rid of your old algorithms). I’ve gone through this process and watched a bunch of people do the same. It really does work, and creates results that are pretty indistinguishable from normally socialized people.
It’s seems our main area of disagreement is over whether certain teaching procedures and certain ways of practicing / developing conversational skills can be effective, namely those that frame the issue in more of a rules based / procedural style. I don’t think anyone is claiming that you can simply learn these rules or procedures and you’re done—apply them and be an instant master conversationalist. The claim is merely that these can be an effective means for people who have failed to develop these skills by the ‘normal’ means to become more competent conversationalists.
I don’t have much direct experience in this area and it appears you don’t either so perhaps we should let the discussion rest at this point. I’m still more inclined to believe the reports of people who claim that they have observed these techniques working successfully than the dismissals from people who think they can’t possibly work but settling the issue would require further evidence that I don’t think either of us can provide.