Alright, but that’s an argument why we don’t benefit from sweatshop labor, because we just have more and cheaper t-shirts and jeans.
But typically that improvement comes from them working their way up, not them being offered a better deal to start off with.
The point is that the factories in China could have better safety regulations for the workers, less grueling hours, and air conditioning. These are not things that individual employees can work their way up to achieve. These are things that will only change from the top. They aren’t done because they cost money. If they were done, Western consumers would have to pay more money for them. But since more material goods don’t necessarily make us happier, the money we’re saving isn’t necessarily translating to increased utility.
Requiring employees to work 13 hour days 7 days a week in miserable conditions DOES, I believe, impact their overall wellbeing in a measurable, negative way. I’m comparing this not to their life before the sweatshop (and even then, I think the overall net gains are debatable), but to what their life COULD be if the sweatshop had better conditions.
The variables are pretty complex, and I don’t know for sure what the optimal system is. But I think if consumer pressure was put on companies to treat their employees better, the result would be a world where some people have less money but that overall, actual utility is increased. And this is not something I expect to happen without external pressure forcing companies to do so.
“and even then, I think the overall net gains are debatable” That’s not the sort of thing you can assert without explaining. People who work in sweatshops choose to work in sweatshops. People are normally relatively good at choosing what makes them better off. If you think this choice has made them worse off, you have to come up with a reason why so many people choose badly.
Obviously I am assuming they are not forced to work at a sweatshop. Obviously it’s bad if they are forced to do so.
Honestly I’m not prepared to make a judgment without actually visiting a sweatshop and interacting with the people there as well as their families. Maybe “it’s debatable” was a bad phrase because I don’t actually have enough facts to debate, period. But so far the arguments to the contrary hinge on treating people like the sum of their financial assets, which I don’t think is true at all. My issues with the arguments so far (i.e. why I am not persuaded by them, NOT why I think other people should believe Sweatshops are evil) are this:
a) I frankly disagree with the statement “people are normally good at choosing what makes them better off.” The whole point of a rationality blog, I thought, was that people are notoriously BAD at this and rationality makes them better at it. I know that I personally stuck around in a dead end job for way longer than necessary because it was the path of least resistance. Changing jobs is scary. You don’t know for sure you’ll be better off. There might not be multiple factories available in every area. The factories might have unspoken agreements about hiring practices to keep prices down. And while people aren’t forced to work in the factories, part of the whole reason sweatshops get a bad wrap is emotional abuse that the employers dish out, which can impede people’s judgment once they’re in the situation.
b) the basic system seems to be one where families offer up sacrificial lambs. On person spends basically their entire waking life at a crappy job to support an extended family. This might or might not create an overall net bonus to utility, I don’t know. I know my gut reaction says that’s unfair. That may just be Western bias.
But my sense from what I’ve read is that the people in question face extensive pressure to make that choice. Interviews I’ve seen suggested that they aren’t completely miserable and that they genuinely feel that staying is the right thing to do, but that they don’t at all consider it a “good choice,” just “the least bad choice.”
I’m not sure which way you mean that: the employee shouldn’t risk switching jobs, or the employer shouldn’t risk changing the situation for better or worse?
These are not things that individual employees can work their way up to achieve.
Suppose there are two factories: one with a worse safety record, and one with a better one. When someone comes from the farm, they find the first factory has an opening; after a few years, they have enough experience that they move to the second factory.
I don’t know how much spread there is in factory conditions (but I imagine there must be some), but I do know there’s at least some spread in worker ability / training.
These are things that will only change from the top.
Suppose you offered the workers of a sweatshop either an air conditioning system for their workplace or the money it would cost, split among them. Do you think that vote would be unanimous?
The point is that the factories in China could have better safety regulations for the workers, less grueling hours, and air conditioning. These are not things that individual employees can work their way up to achieve. These are things that will only change from the top. They aren’t done because they cost money. If they were done, Western consumers would have to pay more money for them. But since more material goods don’t necessarily make us happier, the money we’re saving isn’t necessarily translating to increased utility.
Requiring employees to work 13 hour days 7 days a week in miserable conditions DOES, I believe, impact their overall wellbeing in a measurable, negative way. I’m comparing this not to their life before the sweatshop (and even then, I think the overall net gains are debatable), but to what their life COULD be if the sweatshop had better conditions.
The variables are pretty complex, and I don’t know for sure what the optimal system is. But I think if consumer pressure was put on companies to treat their employees better, the result would be a world where some people have less money but that overall, actual utility is increased. And this is not something I expect to happen without external pressure forcing companies to do so.
“and even then, I think the overall net gains are debatable” That’s not the sort of thing you can assert without explaining. People who work in sweatshops choose to work in sweatshops. People are normally relatively good at choosing what makes them better off. If you think this choice has made them worse off, you have to come up with a reason why so many people choose badly.
Obviously I am assuming they are not forced to work at a sweatshop. Obviously it’s bad if they are forced to do so.
Honestly I’m not prepared to make a judgment without actually visiting a sweatshop and interacting with the people there as well as their families. Maybe “it’s debatable” was a bad phrase because I don’t actually have enough facts to debate, period. But so far the arguments to the contrary hinge on treating people like the sum of their financial assets, which I don’t think is true at all. My issues with the arguments so far (i.e. why I am not persuaded by them, NOT why I think other people should believe Sweatshops are evil) are this:
a) I frankly disagree with the statement “people are normally good at choosing what makes them better off.” The whole point of a rationality blog, I thought, was that people are notoriously BAD at this and rationality makes them better at it. I know that I personally stuck around in a dead end job for way longer than necessary because it was the path of least resistance. Changing jobs is scary. You don’t know for sure you’ll be better off. There might not be multiple factories available in every area. The factories might have unspoken agreements about hiring practices to keep prices down. And while people aren’t forced to work in the factories, part of the whole reason sweatshops get a bad wrap is emotional abuse that the employers dish out, which can impede people’s judgment once they’re in the situation.
b) the basic system seems to be one where families offer up sacrificial lambs. On person spends basically their entire waking life at a crappy job to support an extended family. This might or might not create an overall net bonus to utility, I don’t know. I know my gut reaction says that’s unfair. That may just be Western bias.
But my sense from what I’ve read is that the people in question face extensive pressure to make that choice. Interviews I’ve seen suggested that they aren’t completely miserable and that they genuinely feel that staying is the right thing to do, but that they don’t at all consider it a “good choice,” just “the least bad choice.”
If all that’s available is a “least bad” choice, it’s still important not to rearrange things in ways which result in a worse set of options.
I’m not sure which way you mean that: the employee shouldn’t risk switching jobs, or the employer shouldn’t risk changing the situation for better or worse?
If you’re a third party, you should be careful not to set things up in a way that merely eliminates a least bad choice that looks ugly to you.
For example, making poor quality housing illegal may lead to an increase in people living on the streets.
Suppose there are two factories: one with a worse safety record, and one with a better one. When someone comes from the farm, they find the first factory has an opening; after a few years, they have enough experience that they move to the second factory.
I don’t know how much spread there is in factory conditions (but I imagine there must be some), but I do know there’s at least some spread in worker ability / training.
Suppose you offered the workers of a sweatshop either an air conditioning system for their workplace or the money it would cost, split among them. Do you think that vote would be unanimous?